Acts/facts had a article on Japanese lake varves which touched on other subjects by Jake Hebert(Mar)

They were taking on four points Biologos presented to argue for a old earth.

I offer a idea on salt deposits within sedimentary rock. They say the salt comes when water has been removed that held the salt. As today in salt deposits. i think the yEC answer is AMEN.

The sedimentary layers were instantly turned to stone from a deposition from water flows moving sediment deposits. so when it settled the crushing weight above, that turned the sediment instantly into stone, ALSO squeezed all water away leaving the salt. Simple. in fact the salt in the sed layers is good evidence for a instant creation and not the slow ideas otherwise they push.

Different layers in Grand canyon etc just mean different depositions. So why not quick ones over weeks/months?! In fact it would be that way with great water flows pushede about by the great pressure from the separating continents.

The sequence of fossils also would be from a sudden deposition event. YEC needs to see the K- line as the flood year however.

Indeed varves only need be accelerated deposition events. 

anyways YEC has better answers.

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I can't understand the Grand Canyon flood geology as it just has a lot of questions I am still asking?  Questions about dinosaur fossils found there.  Just a lot of stuff.  Anyone actually look at the cut out of a 1,600 ft. piece of the Grand Canyon?  If the waters receding cut out the canyon, how do we have a multiplicity of layers one on top of another, yet we have huge granite outcrops that were untouched by the waters and no evidences in the gulf?

There may be some other biblical explanation...  There seems to be a huge h*** in explaining why dinosaur born fossils from hydrology are in the top of the canyon 1.600 ft above the marine fossils at the bottom? Don't heavier products float down and lighter up?  Yet we have tortoise shells and the like on the top not on the bottom?  There seems to be a separation between layers via some time signature. Dinosaur nests, foot prints, and other  strata between layers.  

I have read the Grand Canyon stuff from both sides, and I am certainly perplexed.  Would love to see a geology expert have an amicable exchange with a YE Geologist on the subject...if that could ever happen...  

First I think now the GC was carved out post flood. not from receding waters(as i used to think). instead a collection of water incountry some centuries after the flood exploded its boundaries and carved the GC.

As to sequence. YEC easily sees the deposition of the layers explaining everything.

so easily a marine layer was laid and later a land layer from incountry.

Nothing to do with heavy/light biology being put into the sediment and then fossilized.

these were segregated flow events.

Imagine the moving continent throwing back sea layers and then when hitting a stop the back country threw in land layers. lIke with a moving car.

Thanks for your comments Robert!

Robert how did the all the animals (I especially know about reptiles) get to the Grand Canyon so quick after the flood?  The area harbors some reptiles that are specific to the Grand Canyon?  It seems like a disconnect between dispersion and a possible post flood "carving of the Grand Canyon".  Also what about the indigenous races of people that used the Grand Canyon grew crops on its floor and made housing there.

I agree that lacking some explanation, it seems like the flows were indeed segregated events, I guess its how one sees that within the context of some chronologic time signature. As I said I still wrestle with what I read about the grand canyon.  First of all because I believe the creation event was of recent vintage, that makes me reject an evolutionary time scale all together, but on the other hand I also believe there are other possible explanations and something else may be more focused and meet with the evidences.  Is it possible that the Grand Canyon existed a pre-flood? Certainly there are pre-flood fossils....  JUst some thoughts from my perspective.



Lou Hamby said:

Robert how did the all the animals (I especially know about reptiles) get to the Grand Canyon so quick after the flood?  The area harbors some reptiles that are specific to the Grand Canyon?  It seems like a disconnect between dispersion and a possible post flood "carving of the Grand Canyon".  Also what about the indigenous races of people that used the Grand Canyon grew crops on its floor and made housing there.

I agree that lacking some explanation, it seems like the flows were indeed segregated events, I guess its how one sees that within the context of some chronologic time signature. As I said I still wrestle with what I read about the grand canyon.  First of all because I believe the creation event was of recent vintage, that makes me reject an evolutionary time scale all together, but on the other hand I also believe there are other possible explanations and something else may be more focused and meet with the evidences.  Is it possible that the Grand Canyon existed a pre-flood? Certainly there are pre-flood fossils....  JUst some thoughts from my perspective

If the GC was suddenly carved out say, two centuries after the flood THEN reptiles colonizing would have time for unique adaptations.

YEC does need quick adaptions to explain biology. just like with peoples looks.

Its timelines and biological change that yEC needs to supersize. I say marsupials are just area adapted placentals but yEC still denies this as even a option. YEC has problems unless allowing adaptions speedups.

The people would of come much much later.

I don't think its possible or needed to see the GC as pre flood.

The worlds present looks is from the great flood and the GC is a trivial ditch.

I think the GC being carved out in a few days say about 2100BC works well.

not a lst act of the great flood in 2350BC.

Lou Hamby said:

Robert how did the all the animals (I especially know about reptiles) get to the Grand Canyon so quick after the flood?

Regardless of HOW they got there, the fact remains that ALL animals (land animals that breathe air through nostrils) came from the PAIRS of each kind that came off the ark. AND what to we mean by "so quick" - ? ?

It probably required hundreds of years for the animals to gradually disperse through many reproductive cycles to reach the Western Hemisphere to spread out populations there. Millions of mammoths and thousands of dinosaurs - all from just one pair of each kind that were on the ark. It is not going to happen "so quick."

The area harbors some reptiles that are specific to the Grand Canyon?

Animals that are specific to the Grand Canyon are those that adapted to that environment, just like humans adapt to the new environments in which God placed them. And just like God appointed to human the "bounds of their habitation" (Acts 17:26), so he did with all the species and kinds of animals. Lou, you need to understand that the eco-system after the Flood was entirely different from what existed before the Flood (the global flood that we believe in but you don't). That flood is what deposited the layers that were then eroded near the end of the Flood, or perhaps, as many of us believe, many years - or centuries after the Flood.

It seems like a disconnect between dispersion and a possible post flood "carving of the Grand Canyon".  Also what about the indigenous races of people that used the Grand Canyon grew crops on its floor and made housing there.

Again, the indigenous peoples who inhabited the floor of the Grand Canyon did not come there till as much as 200 years after the Flood - that means 2100 BC or later. They did not live in that region before the Flood. The people who grew crops on the canyon floor and found their habitation there - all of them are descendants of the 3 sons of Noah by whom the whole face of the earth was overspread (Gen. 9:19). What is that a problem to the formation of the Grand Canyon several years after the Flood?

I agree that lacking some explanation, it seems like the flows were indeed segregated events, I guess its how one sees that within the context of some chronologic time signature. As I said I still wrestle with what I read about the grand canyon.  First of all because I believe the creation event was of recent vintage, that makes me reject an evolutionary time scale all together, but on the other hand I also believe there are other possible explanations and something else may be more focused and meet with the evidences.  Is it possible that the Grand Canyon existed a pre-flood?

NO. It is not possible. THE LAYERS OF THE CANYON are FILLED with millions of fossils, quadrillions of fossils in hundreds and hundreds of feet of sediment - that are continent-wide in extent. How does one explain the formation of these layers in any event before the Flood? HOW can you fit such a catastrophic event in any timespan with in the 1500 years of pre-Flood history?

Certainly there are pre-flood fossils....  JUst some thoughts from my perspective.

Those who deny the global Flood are in no position to tell us what may or may not be "CERTAIN" about the "pre-Flood" - you don't believe in the Flood, so how can you begin to presume what it was like before the Flood that DID NOT HAPPEN? Yes, there may be a few pre-flood fossils, but it is highly unlikely that any survived the grinding and scouring and wiping of the Flood's destruction (HEB: MacHaR cf 2 Kings 21:13). SO, it is CERTAINLY incorrect to say "Certainly there are pre-flood fossils." As we said in the previous thread that was SHUT DOWN, there is no way to account for CONTINENT-WIDE fossil deposits in the history of Genesis 1 - 5. It is only 1500 years. AND the Bible says that Noah was warned of things "not seen as yet." So there were NO GLOBAL DISASTERS in the world leading up to the Flood. NOAH LIVED for 600 years before the Flood, being born in 1006 anno mundi. There is no way to fit any event that would deposit HUNDREDS OF FEET OF SEDIMENTARY STRATA in the area of the grand canyon.

As long as anyone MAINTAINS INCORRECT PRESUPPOSITIONS their "simple questions" will never be answered until they begin to allow that the Bible is historically accurate in what it narrates. It narrates a global flood that took place in about 2350 BC.

 

Brother Jim thanks for your response, but you apparently are misguided in your opinions about me and a flood.  I believe in a flood, Noah's Ark, Animal dispersion and any other part of the hebraic context of Genesis and pPalms.  Your inference about Psalms 104 must only be your opinion?  22 bibles I am aware of call Psalms 104 a creation Psalm, Scholars in hebrew and Christian Scholars alike also see this and explain its tenants as a creation psalm?

Since you weren't there pre-flood friend, the multiplicity of layered grand canyon strata are a testament that doesn't fit with YEC hydrology?  As an advocate of a recent creation event I only see evidences of "some other explanation" for what is observed.  You wrongly stated the fossil condition of the grand canyon and surrounding areas.  I didn't post tis to question anything, about "your" personal believe, I posted because it seems that there are other explanations and there is a much bigger contingent of Christian experts on geology that do not interpret the canyon in the same light. I personally do not agree with them either as some of their views are based on long ages which I totally reject. But I appreciate your response. If you observe Mt. Saint Helens, we both know that it doesn't take long time signatures for areas to experience layered depositions. But thanks Jim the context of this post was Biologos and there are interesting articles by many experts that do bring up good questions, the same ones that I seem to observe in the sands of the grand canyon.  I absolutely do not take issue with a Biblical flood. The bible is very clear about THAT. CHEERS!

No, I am not misguided, unless you have intentionally misrepresented your position. You have repeatedly said that you do not believe in the Global extent of the Flood.

And still you have not addressed the issue. You cannot talk about what happened before the Flood if you don't know when it happened. You cannot talk about what happened during the Flood if you don't acknowledge that it covered ALL OF THE EARTH, and that the Flood deposited that layers that were eroded to form the Canyon.

You say that I was not there before the FLood. No I was not, but the author of Genesis 1-6 was. AND probably the author of Ps. 104 was there. And we can look at the evidence of the earth and it tells us that the flood occured.

HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR THE GLOBAL deposition of fossil-filled strata? How do you account for the existence of fossils in every continent by the TRILLIONS?

Jim's Bullet points:

  • You have repeatedly said that you do not believe in the Global extent of the Flood.
  • if you don't acknowledge that it covered ALL OF THE EARTH, and that the Flood deposited that layers that were eroded to form the Canyon.
  •  And we can look at the evidence of the earth and it tells us that the flood occurred.

HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR THE GLOBAL deposition of fossil-filled strata? How do you account for the existence of fossils in every continent by the TRILLIONS?

Lou's Response:

Jim I am open to a wwFlood, I just don't find evidences for it, and the sciurpture surely implies a localized event as I ahve posted many things that lead me to think that way.  But more than that Jim more than 3/4 of Christendom believes in a local flood and not a wwFlood? Neither of us was there Jim, but we do have evidences in nature left by GOd's mighty works to examine.  We have his word.  Being lead by the Spirit and a seeker of truth, I cannot seem to rectify the scirptures or evidences with a wwflood.  Non the less I am open. MY original post was not contentious at all nor was it meant to be anything but a discussion by those who want to comment.  

Having said that Jim...I just am being lead to consider other ideas and known evidences.  Plain and simply this does not mean that I don't believe the bible,the gospel...in fact 50 years of Bible study is one reason why I ahve come to the point of knowing the truth as God leads in this pursuit.  I respect the fact you have the passion that you do, its unfortunate that YEC are not willing to explore other evidences.  I understand that, being an administrator of an Intelligent design site, I have many exchanges with YEC brothers who are open, and we do have some very fine exchanges...

THe very comments above by you, are "the" reasons that I began looking at the wwFlood.  Its history via McCready Price, Dr. Morris rooted in Adventist teachings and repackaged by Morris.  THis Flood Hydrology goes back to the early 1900's.  Problem is the physics of flooding cannot support the flood inferences of YECS.

With respect to fossils, their is no place on earth that has trillions of fossils jim.  At one time there has never been trillions of fossils per hecta acre anywhere in history or on earth.  It was just this inference that Morris was debunked on the Karoo fossil beds.  So at no time in any history of mankind, did God produce trillions of animal species or Trillions of species that would be part of the biospheres living creation as set forth by God.
SO the burden of proof rests on you Jim..

Again it is interesting everything known to science and physics says a tortoise shell that was 50 lbs should gravitate to the bottom.  If you familiar with sluicing for gold the same principles come into play.  One must again explain why the grand canyon is carved out as it is, yet 100 miles away there literally billions of igneous granite outcrops with no sign of flood destruction, no evidences in the gulf from these?

We have numerous coal depositions and fossil marine depositions where whole fully formed eco systems are imposed one on top of the other.  Tis seems impossible Jim to be created by a flood.

I understand that we both believe in a recent creation event, I just don't think there is enough time to explain this via 6,000 years.  Since Morris and leading YECs were fine with 10,000 to 12,000 years...Woodmorphe 24,000 years, I am still in the pale of YE thinking, and none of should be arbitrary but just respectful of one another's discussions.  

With respect to the formation of land, It is clear tome, but not to you...that when God created land.  It was for the purpose of fulfilling all the creation niches God had designed.  To say that mountains and valleys and rivers did not exist when God began forming the earth for creation is clearly required they did exist.  Now again...you put me off when I comment on 22 bibles have creation psalm as a heading for Psalms 104? It clearly speaks of Gods work in the earth n the beginning? Before the biologic creation event began God created an appropriate biopshere for setting in place all the species and kinds required by his marvelous design...

So you and I brother just have a different view of the evidences and what took Place biblically.  Thats all-- but I am not going to argue with you on this I just see there is rom and need for another explanation that fits with the evidences...

So this means that STILL YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER.

On very simple question - How do you account for the global distribution of FOSSIL-LADEN STRATA HUNDREDS OF FEET DEEP ?

How do you account for the fossils? Until YOU can respond to this simple question you need to quit asserting that there is no evidence for the Global flood. You also need to stop complaining that we never answer your questions.

This is assertion that you keep repeating is a lie. I am not saying you are lying. BUT YOU ARE REPEATING THE LIE that this forum is devoted to answering.

And still you refuse to answer ONE SIMPLE QUESTION. How did the fossils get here?

You keep saying that fossils are possible from before the Flood, but in the same sentence you deny the Flood.

I N C R E D I B L E . . .

Jim

Lou means fossils are possible before a LOCAL flood as recorded in the bible.

Then he adds there are other options for the world wide fossils found. 

I understand he sees a global flood as a option but is not persuaded yet.

I see the bible as striving to its audience to show its a flood to destroy all breathing life on the dry land. Thus the Ark is essential in packing in members of all biology that othertwise would die.

So I am confident all fossils, below the k-t line, are from the first days/weeks of the flood. No pre flood fossils.

However Lou represents a historic and still common opinion in evangelical circles.

The difference though Robert is many evangelicals believe in gradualism, or long periods of time.  evidences in AMS c-14 and other soft tissue discoveries provide clear evidences of a recent creation event.  Why would God need millions of years to create.

Robert there is at least 7 different type of fossils and they do not all line up with the flood model.  

Why would almighty God need millions of years to create a living biopshere?  So while I may not be 6,000 year YEC I am much more YE oriented in context to the actual creation event, however trying to explain the "amount" of fossils at anyone time in history cannot be from one flood. Recent discoveries in meso-American cultures and Australian aboriginal studies have concluded these were in existence even before the Egyptians? 

So as a side note Biblically via the hebrew, one reason Robert why some evangelicals see the words used in Genesis different than YECs?

The word "Land" (Erets) infers a localized area where Noah lived.

THe eye witness account of the waters rising was of a local opinion not WW.  One could not see Mount Everest or for that matter even Ararat from his vantage point.

Certainly all was destroyed, living and non living in that area.  

A lack of any cogent explanation for dispersion, yet the bible is clear they came off the ARK and repopulated the area.  We cannot explain the drying of the waters in context to mountains being covered through out the world. Given the actual information of the waters drying, some mathematical scenarios for even Mount Ararat would take 20+ years to dry out.  So a local flood must have been in view with these actual figures the bible gives us. 

Also a careful reading of the waters, the eye witness had to ahve something as a rule to infer 22 to 24 foot rising.  Also tat is deep enough draft to float an ocean liner... 

So I am not being anti-bible, I am trying to delineate what the word says and what is the best evidences for a local or wwFlood.  Tree rings have no evidences of a wwFlood, and they go back to 9,000 years.  

Again it is not my intent to get in argument with anyone, but these are some of the things that I question.  when I talk of the Grand Canyon and igneous outcroppings in California and Arizona, I get little geological explanation or response?  

Robert if there are trillions of fossils...wen in history did the biopshere have trillions of fossils living together in context to a creation event. THrough time there may have been trillions or billions, but measurements by biologists over the years we know approximately what the figures are per hecta acre of life.  This is why Morris used this on the Karoo Fossil beds but several times he was asked to explain these large numbers in one year.  He could not and also realized that the Karoo fossil beds are a multiplicity of events that are responsible for what we actually observe.  My point is that as Christians we are all looking at the evidences and reading the word of GOd.  I cannot rectify a flood geology when we ahve multiple marine ecosystems stacked on top of one another, or very heavy animal fossils at the top instead of the bottom.  If all the layers that exist were just from the flood, then how did the mountains and valleys that God created stay up and exist over time unless they were built of strata?  Psalms 104 surely gives us a clue about that.

With respect to the Ark, there is no discussion ever on insects and how they survived the ARK and flood. There is a better need to explain dispersion, as Experts in the fields of DNA have debunked adaptive variation as it has never been observed, but what of the bibles own language as well.

So within the context of a YE view I am looking at all the factors and believe there must be other explanations in some areas than what has been already implied yet peer review and experts in the fields of science quesiton as well becasue of a lack of actual evidences.

 

 



 

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