I happen to believe that the universe can not exist separate from God as God is omni-present and holds the universe together. I do not believe that the universe is all there is to God but I also do not believe it can be something other than a part of God. The philosophical reasoning behind this is that there can be nothing outside the infinite as by definition the infinite encompasses all that could be. The infinite must contain infinite attributes and so there can be no attribute that is not a part of the infinite. I also have a theological argument behind this.

 

Let's start with God's name, Jehovah, or Yod Hay Vav Hay. God was not known by that name by Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob (Exodus 6:3). The first time God gave His name was to Moses in Exodus 3:14. The name He gave was a repetition of the Hebrew word Hayah, or Hay Yod Hay, which literally means to exist, separated by the Hebrew word Sar, or Shin Resh, which is defined as a head person, captain, chief, general, governor, keeper, lord, master, prince, ruler, steward. It is a derivative of Sarar or Shin Resh Resh which means to have dominion, make self a prince, bear rule. So loosely translated, the name God gave to Moses was I am the existence that rules existence.

God's name was not shortened to Yod Hay Vav Hay until Exodus 6:3. The Hebrew word Yehovah means self existent or eternal. For short they used the Hebrew word Yahh, or Yod Hay. What's the primitive root of Yod Hay Vav Hay? Well, wouldn't you know?, it's Hay Yod Hay; the very name, in an expanded form, God originally gave to Moses (Exodus 3:14). Let's go one step further. What Hebrew word is Hay Yod Hay comparable to? It's the Hebrew word Havah, or Hay Vav Hay, which happens to mean to breathe and to be or to exist. Why is that important? Because it ties it right back to the Hebrew word Ruwach, or Resh Vav Hay, meaning to breathe but also meaning Spirit.

 

How was the heaven and earth created? God "spoke" it into existence. Another way of saying this is that God "breathed" it into existence. Hebrews 1:3 states that God continues "upholding all things by the word of his power." So God IS breath, or the existence behind existence itself. His breath created the universe and continues to sustain it. If He withdrew His breath the universe would cease to exist. The universe can not exist separately from God nor is it separate from God. Let's go a step further.

 

In Genesis 2:7 it states: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life." Ecclesiastes 12:7 says "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." This indicates our existence comes from God's breath and when we die His breath returns to him. So even we are a part of God and not separate.

 

I don't believe this is pantheism but am open to being shown otherwise. In so doing, is there scriptural evidence to indicate that the creation itself is separate from God or that anything which exists is separate from God? I look forward to the discussion.

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Well, yes, to an extent. We trust God when he says that through him we will have eternal life. We trust him that satan will be bound and that we can resist his influences. We trust him that there are angels and forces outside of our experience that work things out for good. We cannot test these forces, nor run experiments upon them. We experience them sometimes (demonic possessions?), but don't really know how they work. Heck, we don't even know that we will persist past this physical form, but God says we do, so we trust him.

I guess what I'm saying is we don't know about the spiritual realm. The only information we have on it is that which was told us by God. So we trust Him. This physical world we interact with and can test, touch, taste and feel, but that one we have only fleeting interactions with. This one we can attempt to understand through those same senses, that one we cannot even know when we've interacted with, save usually in hindsight, and some dispute even that.

So do we leave it, and worry not about it. No, we speak what has been told us. We can try and contemplate what is outside of what has been told us, but we must understand that if it wasn't made known to us, we may not be able to know it.
But the things in this realm we should be able to contemplate and understand. Sin and the law for example. Sin and the law is not spiritual but mental and physical. There is a mental moral law that has been written on physical tablets that bears relevance to our thoughts and physical behavior. Sin and the law we can contemplate and should be able to understand.

Brian Guiley said:
Well, yes, to an extent. We trust God when he says that through him we will have eternal life. We trust him that satan will be bound and that we can resist his influences. We trust him that there are angels and forces outside of our experience that work things out for good. We cannot test these forces, nor run experiments upon them. We experience them sometimes (demonic possessions?), but don't really know how they work. Heck, we don't even know that we will persist past this physical form, but God says we do, so we trust him.

I guess what I'm saying is we don't know about the spiritual realm. The only information we have on it is that which was told us by God. So we trust Him. This physical world we interact with and can test, touch, taste and feel, but that one we have only fleeting interactions with. This one we can attempt to understand through those same senses, that one we cannot even know when we've interacted with, save usually in hindsight, and some dispute even that.

So do we leave it, and worry not about it. No, we speak what has been told us. We can try and contemplate what is outside of what has been told us, but we must understand that if it wasn't made known to us, we may not be able to know it.
Y'all,

It is important to remember God's words:

The Spirit searcheth all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things which are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
(1 Corinthians 2)

This is a long passage, but exceedingly important. It teaches many things.
First, we can not know spiritual things through the natural man, which includes the brain. In fact, spiritual things are foolishness to the natural man (as will be readily attested by many evolutionists). The natural man includes the body (we cannot touch spiritual things) and the mind (as in the brain, which does mathematical calculations and such, and even animals use).
Second, we can know spiritual things, because we have God's Spirit indwelling us. The Spirit knows everything, and teaches us spiritual things spiritually. This means we can really know about spiritual things, not just guess; we just have to use the Spirit.
Third, we are too compare spiritual things with spiritual, using spiritual language, not the words of worldly wisdom. Christ used parables, and shows us that we can use analogies to verbalize spiritual things. We must remember, however, that spiritual things are spiritual, and can only be understood by the spirit.

Alexander, you again stated that sin is mental and physical. Why then can Satan sin, who is a spirit? Why is our eternal soul punished for something our temporal physical brain and body has done? Of course, sin and the law applies to the physical, but sin is spiritual, and requires a spiritual solution (spiritual rebirth). We tend to get confused by the concept of "mental" activity. How much is our brain working and how much is our spirit? Animals have brains, but no spirits. That is why they don't sin, and don't need a savior. We have a spirit, and it sins and has interaction with God. Our mind may be where the Spirit generally operates, but it is the spirit that is responsible for sin.

Alexander Martin said:
But the things in this realm we should be able to contemplate and understand. Sin and the law for example. Sin and the law is not spiritual but mental and physical. There is a mental moral law that has been written on physical tablets that bears relevance to our thoughts and physical behavior. Sin and the law we can contemplate and should be able to understand.

Brian Guiley said:
Well, yes, to an extent. We trust God when he says that through him we will have eternal life. We trust him that satan will be bound and that we can resist his influences. We trust him that there are angels and forces outside of our experience that work things out for good. We cannot test these forces, nor run experiments upon them. We experience them sometimes (demonic possessions?), but don't really know how they work. Heck, we don't even know that we will persist past this physical form, but God says we do, so we trust him.

I guess what I'm saying is we don't know about the spiritual realm. The only information we have on it is that which was told us by God. So we trust Him. This physical world we interact with and can test, touch, taste and feel, but that one we have only fleeting interactions with. This one we can attempt to understand through those same senses, that one we cannot even know when we've interacted with, save usually in hindsight, and some dispute even that.

So do we leave it, and worry not about it. No, we speak what has been told us. We can try and contemplate what is outside of what has been told us, but we must understand that if it wasn't made known to us, we may not be able to know it.
Help me understand this David.

Entropy is a good analogy and parable for sin and the nature of spiritual things. Correct?

If you don't agree with that based on it being a construct of the brain of a natural man then the next statement would also apply.

We cannot know Satan, who is a spirit, because we would only be using our natural man brain to understand him and the only way to understand him would be through our spirit man, which is not accessable by our natural man brain. The passages in the BIble wouldn't help because we can't understand the spiritual meaning of the passages in the Bible with our natural man brain.

What this implies is that either the things of the spirit are relatable to our brain which is only familiar with physical experiences or our brain can not understand the spiritual things of the Bible and our spirit man can not relate it to our brain. In this context we may get intuitions from our spirit man but not understand the significance of the intuitions because our brain only functions on the natural man level.

Which position would you agree with?

David Thomas Posey said:
Y'all,

It is important to remember God's words:

The Spirit searcheth all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things which are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
(1 Corinthians 2)

This is a long passage, but exceedingly important. It teaches many things.
First, we can not know spiritual things through the natural man, which includes the brain. In fact, spiritual things are foolishness to the natural man (as will be readily attested by many evolutionists). The natural man includes the body (we cannot touch spiritual things) and the mind (as in the brain, which does mathematical calculations and such, and even animals use).
Second, we can know spiritual things, because we have God's Spirit indwelling us. The Spirit knows everything, and teaches us spiritual things spiritually. This means we can really know about spiritual things, not just guess; we just have to use the Spirit.
Third, we are too compare spiritual things with spiritual, using spiritual language, not the words of worldly wisdom. Christ used parables, and shows us that we can use analogies to verbalize spiritual things. We must remember, however, that spiritual things are spiritual, and can only be understood by the spirit.

Alexander, you again stated that sin is mental and physical. Why then can Satan sin, who is a spirit? Why is our eternal soul punished for something our temporal physical brain and body has done? Of course, sin and the law applies to the physical, but sin is spiritual, and requires a spiritual solution (spiritual rebirth). We tend to get confused by the concept of "mental" activity. How much is our brain working and how much is our spirit? Animals have brains, but no spirits. That is why they don't sin, and don't need a savior. We have a spirit, and it sins and has interaction with God. Our mind may be where the Spirit generally operates, but it is the spirit that is responsible for sin.

You didn't respond to the Scripture, but that's okay.

I agree that physical things can be good analogies for spiritual things. I do not believe that the brin is the seat of all understanding. The mind (as we know it) is where the information interpreted and conveyed by the Spirit meets the information collected and interpreted by the natural man. Things spiritual meet things "mental," but are not the same things. Is that confusing?

Yes, that is confusing. That is because we are arguing about spiritual things and physical things and getting the two mixed up. We can use our reason, we can use our brain, just as we can use our emotions, but we must subjugate them to the Spirit or we will wind up arguing and coming up with all kinds of complicated models and names (words taught by worldly wisdom) to describe and limit spiritual things. We are a lot more complicated than our finite minds can easily wrap around.

My whole point here is that we have to be careful to keep grounded in the Word (which is spiritual), using Biblical truths to back all of our positions and yielding if Scripture proves us wrong.

Alexander Martin said:
Help me understand this David.

Entropy is a good analogy and parable for sin and the nature of spiritual things. Correct?

If you don't agree with that based on it being a construct of the brain of a natural man then the next statement would also apply.

We cannot know Satan, who is a spirit, because we would only be using our natural man brain to understand him and the only way to understand him would be through our spirit man, which is not accessable by our natural man brain. The passages in the BIble wouldn't help because we can't understand the spiritual meaning of the passages in the Bible with our natural man brain.

What this implies is that either the things of the spirit are relatable to our brain which is only familiar with physical experiences or our brain can not understand the spiritual things of the Bible and our spirit man can not relate it to our brain. In this context we may get intuitions from our spirit man but not understand the significance of the intuitions because our brain only functions on the natural man level.

Which position would you agree with?

David Thomas Posey said:
Y'all,

It is important to remember God's words:

The Spirit searcheth all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things which are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
(1 Corinthians 2)

This is a long passage, but exceedingly important. It teaches many things.
First, we can not know spiritual things through the natural man, which includes the brain. In fact, spiritual things are foolishness to the natural man (as will be readily attested by many evolutionists). The natural man includes the body (we cannot touch spiritual things) and the mind (as in the brain, which does mathematical calculations and such, and even animals use).
Second, we can know spiritual things, because we have God's Spirit indwelling us. The Spirit knows everything, and teaches us spiritual things spiritually. This means we can really know about spiritual things, not just guess; we just have to use the Spirit.
Third, we are too compare spiritual things with spiritual, using spiritual language, not the words of worldly wisdom. Christ used parables, and shows us that we can use analogies to verbalize spiritual things. We must remember, however, that spiritual things are spiritual, and can only be understood by the spirit.

Alexander, you again stated that sin is mental and physical. Why then can Satan sin, who is a spirit? Why is our eternal soul punished for something our temporal physical brain and body has done? Of course, sin and the law applies to the physical, but sin is spiritual, and requires a spiritual solution (spiritual rebirth). We tend to get confused by the concept of "mental" activity. How much is our brain working and how much is our spirit? Animals have brains, but no spirits. That is why they don't sin, and don't need a savior. We have a spirit, and it sins and has interaction with God. Our mind may be where the Spirit generally operates, but it is the spirit that is responsible for sin.

Thanks David! I think the one thing we can all agree on is that ultimately it is the Bible that is the authority.

David Thomas Posey said:
You didn't respond to the Scripture, but that's okay.

I agree that physical things can be good analogies for spiritual things. I do not believe that the brin is the seat of all understanding. The mind (as we know it) is where the information interpreted and conveyed by the Spirit meets the information collected and interpreted by the natural man. Things spiritual meet things "mental," but are not the same things. Is that confusing?

Yes, that is confusing. That is because we are arguing about spiritual things and physical things and getting the two mixed up. We can use our reason, we can use our brain, just as we can use our emotions, but we must subjugate them to the Spirit or we will wind up arguing and coming up with all kinds of complicated models and names (words taught by worldly wisdom) to describe and limit spiritual things. We are a lot more complicated than our finite minds can easily wrap around.

My whole point here is that we have to be careful to keep grounded in the Word (which is spiritual), using Biblical truths to back all of our positions and yielding if Scripture proves us wrong.

I’m posting this only because my recent debate with an evolutionist caused me to flesh out this argument. I thought it was interesting and wanted to share it.

 

 

My proof of God inspired by Descartes’ Meditations:

 

 

Premise 1: Much of the edifice that makes up our worldview is based on foundational falsehoods which call into doubt the entire edifice built on them.

 

Premise 2: Instead of examining each individual facet of the worldview to see if it is false, it is justifiable to examine the foundational principles on which these beliefs are based and to reject them if they are found in doubt.

 

Premise 3: The five senses, space, time, and matter are called into doubt and must be rejected.

 

Premise 4: Existence itself can not be called into doubt.

 

Premise 5: Indubitably, existence transcends the five senses, space, time, and matter.

 

Premise 6: God is existence that transcends the five senses, space, time, and matter.

 

Conclusion: This is evidence of the existence of God.

 

 

Justification for the conclusion:

 

 

All true foundational principles are justifiable.

No foundational principles in doubt are justifiable.

Therefore, no foundational principles in doubt are true foundational principles.

 

 

All true foundational principles are justifiable foundational principles.
No justifiable foundational principles are false foundational principles.
Therefore, no false foundational principles are true foundational principles. 

 

 

All foundational principles that are not true are false.
All foundational principles in doubt are foundational principles that are not true.
Therefore, all foundational principles in doubt are false.

 

 

The senses produce information that is in doubt and therefore false. The senses themselves are in doubt and therefore false. Another way to say they are false is to say they are an illusion. When we watch a 3D movie we are experiencing an illusion. When we play games and travel with first and third person video games in “cyber space” we experience an illusion. When we dream we experience an illusion. None of these things are actually real or true to the illusion it appears to be. Although they are illusions they operate given a defined set of rules that can’t be broken or the illusion evaporates, vanishes, and the spell of simulation is broken. The rules themselves are true while the illusions they create are false. In the same way, all of what we experience as “reality” is an illusion with a very structured set of rules. This set of rules I call the Logos which emanates from the nature of this unbounded existence I call Spirit. I would say it is the Logos that is the essence of logic which has revealed the existence of the unbounded Spirit. Without the Logos there is no revelation of Spirit and yet without the Logos there is no illusion of reality. The senses are an illusion created by a defined set of rules emanating from the Logos. The body, space, and time are similarly illusions. Although they are illusions they remain convincing only because the Logos is unchanging and therefore the illusion is unbroken. So, do the senses exist at all? Not in truth. All that truly exists is unbounded Spirit. Everything else is illusion.

 

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