This post is an FYI or maybe you had problems with this.

Animals and meat

I was taught and it talks about in Genesis we humans were originally designed to eat plants. Animals were given for people to eat at genesis 9:3 KJV. I use KJV because its public domain,I personally like the NLT.

Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

I had problems about animals. I wondered why peranna's have teeth. Some of my friends who bible believers helped me to understand it clearer. Animals have instinct. They're bodies are ok eating meat. I've heard it said or I took it like this 'Animals were originally designed to only eat plants '. Since God is all knowing I believe that before the fall animals ate only plants. But God had forknowledge. After the fall, we see carnivores, herbavores, and omnivores. The post flood world was also different.

In the new heaven and earth it will be different, however.

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Jim Brenneman said:

David. There will always be those who believe that from the beginning of creation all things continue the same. They will always insist that from day one, even in the very good, unfallen world, there was, and always has been bloodshed and the eating of meat. After all this is a fact of science. So we must therefore adjust our "view" and our malleable sacred texts to the firm and definitive demands of science. If "science" says they were meat-eaters then the inferior and subjective and widely diverging interpreters must yield to the inalterable "facts."

Brother Jim, again this false narrative of me is wrong!  I have never asked you or anyone on this forum to  adopt my view, I have given reasons why I "may" have a different view...and I give reasons for it. Have it your way Jim.....

Lou, do you see yourself in the paragraph I quoted? Did I mention you? However, even though I specifically did not mention you, nonetheless, can you show me why this does not properly represent your position? You always call for a re-examination of biblical understanding based on what you esteem to be the newly discovered facts of science. You do that over and over and over. It is your fundamental world-view and your absolute and entire approach to the Scriptures. You defend this approach over and over. And you repeatedly oppose and resist the opposite view that the Scriptures are to be held above any so-called facts of science. We will always but heads, and you will always be out of the loop as long as you continue to imagine that we are ever to interpret the Bible in light of science. You simply have it backwards.

It is not at all a false narrative. I can provide you with a dozen examples where you treat the simple sense of Scripture as subjective and uncertain, and I can provide you with a ten dozen examples where you treat the goofy ideas of science as inalterable fact. Sad but true brother. I wish I was wrong. I wish that you could show me how I am misreading your fundamental opposition to this basic hermeneutical approach of all of us who are mainstream creationists. We hold the Scriptures as knowable and true, not subject to every wind of new doctrine due to some supposed discovery of science.

Lou Hamby said:

LOU SAID:

Brother Jim, again this false narrative of me is wrong!  I have never asked you or anyone on this forum to  adopt my view, I have given reasons why I "may" have a different view...and I give reasons for it. Have it your way Jim.....

Have it your way Lou, but you are not in agreement with Creationists on our approach to Scripture and Science.

Hey Jim incase you forgot, I am a young earth creationists, with a brain...thanks for your support.  I know you mean well....Cheers!

Lou, I know you mean well too. Cheers. Yes you are a young earth creationist, and no one has ever called that into question. But you do not share the same approach to the relation between science and Scripture as do the creationist organizations. I know you mean well buddy, but you still need to work on getting this straightened out. The Bible comes first and no "fact" of science can ever be the basis for how we interpret the Bible. You have a brain and I know you can get this. More importantly you have the Holy Spirit, who will teach you all things. Cheers.

Lou Hamby said:

Hey Jim incase you forgot, I am a young earth creationists, with a brain...thanks for your support.  I know you mean well....Cheers!

Jim Said:
Lou, I know you mean well too. Cheers. Yes you are a young earth creationist, and no one has ever called that into question. But you do not share the same approach to the relation between science and Scripture as do the creationist organizations. I know you mean well buddy, but you still need to work on getting this straightened out. The Bible comes first and no "fact" of science can ever be the basis for how we interpret the Bible. You have a brain and I know you can get this. More importantly you have the Holy Spirit, who will teach you all things. Cheers.

Lou Said:
I leave this for you or any others that chime into this--
Below are just a few of hundreds of scriptures of Gods Word.  Many of them invites “us” to explore his mighty works, His creation is all around us....

Now in a clear answer as best I can,  agreed because of these and others scriptures and my own understanding of the whole basis for science and the great Christian men who founded the sciences, they were all moved by the scripture and Gods work, they saw the basis for the laws of the universe and the created animal diversity, all of it, were part of the worship and seeking out Gods creation. The onus for science originally was to prove out Gods work, to explore and understand the mysteries Gods work and creations.  It was not until it was hijacked and used as a vehicle to bolster certain uniformitarian ideas and evolutionary ideas.  I am one who takes the first view as the basis for science.   

Your exactly right in your inferences that I do not follow the same logic or even the same “model” that some creationists follow after.  I would include you in that group.  I clearly understand what you have said above and also the many times you have invoked the scriptures as the soul source that God has left in the Universe for which to draw conclusions.  God himself does not imply that anywhere in scripture?    

Your inference to me “needing to get this straightened out”, well I can appreciate your candor as always.

Jim this statement you have used over and over like a broken record: “The Bible comes first and no "fact" of science can ever be the basis for how we interpret the Bible”.

So now let me be clear “again” there are two books written by the same creator GOD of which we both worship in Spirit and Truth.  You are disposed to think that science is a hindrance to spirituality, that science is something that God condemns, Science for you is anathema.

Below as you read these great scriptures many of them you’ll find GOD challenging man to look into what He has done, learn and understand.  observe nature.....this is what our forefathers in the science field actually did do. Gods works are spiritual Jim, but Gods works are physical too.  The physical has “evidences” left even as we both know undisputed evidences everywhere.  

Where does the scriptures say or explicitly imply that in order to understand God, one must go to the Bible as the full revelation of GODs work in this world?  Jim even the bible doesn’t say this?   We both believe in inerrant Word, and the truth of GODs work and message in the Word is contained in those very scriptures.  Here is where we part from one another:

You have taken a man’s theoretical approach to biblical interpretation with a presupposition that one must go to the bible first, apply his presupposition to the bible and then try and prove or explain that presupposition based on some scripture.  For me Jim this is convoluted. The reason is no fault of your own, but men of God for centuries have tried to illicit what is acceptable and unacceptable theology and inference in scripture.  There is no doubt in my mind that anytime science is used for the good of discovering Gods work and revelation, it will surely square with scripture...now let me be clear — not mans interpolations of scripture that are sometimes found to be wrong (such as the flat earth) no it is indeed when fact is fact the truth because it comes from GOD will in every way line up with the scriptures?  There is no doubt about this.

For instance one of our good YEC geologists believes in a post flood Populations of animals leaving a fossil record, post-flood.  That is determined by a specific interpretation of scripture “first”.  Now contrary tot hat view there is some other YEC authors who believe that “all” fossil evidences are a result of the flood? So who is right.  Who’s interpretation is correct in the matter?  Or is it possible that they are both wrong? How do “you” as a believer answer our early scientists who discovered great and marvelous things by using laws and theorems, and learning intimate details of GODs workings?
  
There is no schism here Jim, it is certainly yours and others who see some “dogma” written in YEC ideas that insist on a certain approach and yet faithful, well educated, well read YEC believers do not take this approach?  

So now an example for you:
Quite some tome ago you and I butt heads about the caulking of boats and what was used.  Did we not? Well you insisted that the Hebrew says it was or could have been, pine tar.  You also gave me what seemed to be a cogent explanation as to why pine tar has been used to caulk boats..  

So Jim I went on a quest of sorts and researched ever single instance of a boat discovery in the middle east form every existing culture that had boats even those in the Baltic areas.  When I read the Tower of Babel the bricks used were caulked or mortared with Bitumen.  That same words is clearly used through out the bible in early Hebrew history.  It is a known fact Jim, that boats were caulked with Bitumen, however your required they be “post-flood”, because in your own ideas and understanding of YEC dogma, The flood was responsible for bitumen and its production, ergo the reason why Noah's boat was caulked with pine tar???? Here is where the rub is  for me.  You want to totally discredit any reference to Bitumen unless its post flood, any discovery you will call post-flood, and science is dammed if it has a different evidences?

You see I am interested on the truth Jim, no matter what side of the tracks it comes down on.  I see the revelation of Gods work to be that which neatly fits with the scriptures.  So Jim I am very sure that the caulk used by Noah was indeed bitumen?  I did also look up pine tar boats of which northern Europe was very well acquainted at using in ancient times, But even the Chumash Indians on the west coast and other cultures used bitumen for their boats?  Most but not all of these boats date from a later period.

So what is the point of this exercise, you will reject any reference to Bitumen with respect to the caulking of the boats in Genesis, there is a huge contingency of proof Jim, not supposition as you suppose, but proof!!!  Even recent boats discovered that were covered in bitumen — my point is that the truth is the truth, and not one iota of young earth is affected by this fact that bitumen existed prior to the flood?  It was the most commonly used product of the middle east for boats and mortar. Every example of a boat that used caulking in the middle east is indeed caulked or thought to have been caulked with bitumen a very common occurrence for ages.  

I am just as Christian as the next person on this forum, and I am just as much a young earth exponent as well, but I do not concur with some of the approaches to these issues.  And the sad part of this, is I can only conclude that an unwillingness to even discuss or look at the evidence or insist because Joe so and so says it is pre-flood when you have GODs revelation and factual evidence before you?  So no I don’t always buy into some of our YEC views, because the scripture does not at all imply some of these theoretical views that are being espoused as fact, and sometime based on an interpretation that at best questionable?

So as a YEC I am about the truth and want to know the truth, there are “two” books for me, One written and one with actual physical evidences left for us all to see. In the beginning was the Word “logos”, the creation, and the Word are one, and they all are GODs intimate detail design and work.

We cannot as good Christians reject Gods revelation for mans imputation of a scripture that does not line up with the facts.  This is not about blackening the eye of YEC’s I am a YEC, but it is certainly not about blackening the eye of science when the evidence is before you and God himself in  His Word calls YOU JIM to explore Him and to know Him, and that is not just the spiritual or theological, that is indeed His creation, His world of which we live.  

SO lastly,  yes we do part ways interestingly on many issues, but we must as believers seek the truth of GODs revelation—all of it!!!  You cannot insist on a scripture or mans presuppositions in the face of facts Jim?  So if your “protecting” certain dogma as set forth by fellow Creationists, how can this be right?  We need to be flexible and examine evidences in order to propagate a more perfect union between all believers. So I am sorry for such a long response, but I laid out what I now to be true, and gave you an example of how and why we butt heads Jim.  I am no way bothered that we come from these different viewpoints, but I also challenge you, that I do not need to get over anything...  My thinking and the facts where they are clear need to be discussed and then if they don’t stick to the wall then disregard them, but we can’t just assume on presupposition that everyone's view of scripture is somehow perfect, because it isn’t? Let Gods truth of His word speak where it will and let the revelation of God in creation also speak where it will, in no case should there be a schism between the two when we finally understand the truth of it.  We should not shun questions, or be afraid of science as some are.  But we also need to have a very strong response to the evolutionary inferences of science.  But the basis of science for  “me” has to do with the will worship of God and his revelation and truth left behind in the sand of time for us too explore and know Him intimately.

Lord, dearly bless my brother Jim......

Scriptures:
But if I do his work, believe in the evidence of the miraculous works I have done, even if you don't believe me. Then you will know and understand that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father."

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Psalms 104:24-28 -- How many are your works, O Lord! In wisdom you made them all; the earth is full of your creatures. There is the sea, vast and spacious, teeming with creatures beyond number - living things both large and small.... These all look to you to give them their food at the proper time,. When you give it to them, they gather it up; when you open your hand, they are satisfied with good things.

Psalm 19:1 -- the heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands.

25 Of old You laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
26 They will perish, but You will endure;
Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; 
Like a cloak You will change them, 
And they will be changed.
27 But You are the same,
And Your years will have no end.

Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind: "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up your loins like a man, I will question you, and you shall declare to me. Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements-- surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone when the morning stars sang together praise."

4 “‘There are some that only chew the cud or only have a divided hoof, but you must not eat them. The camel, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is ceremonially unclean for you. 5 The hyrax, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is unclean for you. 6 The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is unclean for you. 7 And the pig, though it has a divided hoof, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. 8 You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.

9 “‘Of all the creatures living in the water of the seas and the streams you may eat any that have fins and scales. 10 But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales—whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water—you are to regard as unclean. 11 And since you are to regard them as unclean, you must not eat their meat; you must regard their carcasses as unclean. 12 Anything living in the water that does not have fins and scales is to be regarded as unclean by you.

 “How many are your works, O Lord! In wisdom you made them all; the earth is full of your creatures. There is the sea, vast and spacious, teeming with creatures beyond number-living things both large and small.” (NIV)

“When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?” (KJV)

The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”

“Ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds of the air, and they will tell you; or speak to the earth, and it will teach you, or let the fish of the sea inform you. Which of these does not know that the hand of the Lord has done this? In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind.” (NIV)

It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out.
Go to the ant, O sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise.





Jim I wouldn't know where to start with these comments, you now are accusing me of idolatry?  Wow!  I am not engaging this, best thing I know to do is kick the trash above to the curb and forgive you.  Lord bless you brother. 

Dear Jesslynn:

Do you believe God has made us to be a door matt for peoples personal ad hominium attacks? I am sorry that you are being affected by this. Being called toxic remarks such as an idolator is not a good thing. If you take the time to read the posts, you should see my answer was cogent and these remarks I have kicked to the curb and forgiven Jim.  I am moving forward. 

I am  a Christian of 40+ years, 6/24 and 6-10,000 years on YE.  I am open to any suggestions you have.  Again I apologize for my part AND I CERTAINLY THINK THESE TYPE OF REMARKS REFLECT ON THE WHOLE FORUM...I have asked Jim to cool it several months ago, and lets just move on, but this is apparently something he seems incapable of doing. Only other thing I could do is not reposed to him at all...Please feel free to friend me and send me any correspondence...I am  open. Thanks for your concern! Every time I feel lead to respond I cringe.

Thanks and all I want to do is just share what I know, and why.  For me someone diametrically opposed to my views is just fine, Frankly some of my views have change over time, and I have learned a lot form some pretty smart cookies we have on the forum.  Actually I  I appreciate his biblical and even scientific stuff, it would be great if the conversation could not be about the debate, but about the information and let it stand. In the end what we think is right may be proven wrong...both of us.  Some of these things are not going to be resolved even in the near future......  

Since you believe these remarks reflect POORLY on the whole forum, why don't you remove them?

Lou Hamby said:

Dear Jesslynn:

Do you believe God has made us to be a door matt for peoples personal ad hominium attacks? I am sorry that you are being affected by this. Being called toxic remarks such as an idolator is not a good thing. If you take the time to read the posts, you should see my answer was cogent and these remarks I have kicked to the curb and forgiven Jim.  I am moving forward. 

I am  a Christian of 40+ years, 6/24 and 6-10,000 years on YE.  I am open to any suggestions you have.  Again I apologize for my part AND I CERTAINLY THINK THESE TYPE OF REMARKS REFLECT ON THE WHOLE FORUM...I have asked Jim to cool it several months ago, and lets just move on, but this is apparently something he seems incapable of doing. Only other thing I could do is not reposed to him at all...Please feel free to friend me and send me any correspondence...I am  open. Thanks for your concern! Every time I feel lead to respond I cringe.

Remove your attacks on our Creation Conversations statement of Faith and I will remove my responses.

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