Does this disprove the NT? Major objection I am having trouble finding good anwser to
To me the most convincing objection to the NT is that the apostles all seemed to think Jesus was coming back in there lifetimes, Paul,John ,Peter,all said so. So does this not disprove the NT authors as divinely inspired since they were wrong? I have been trying to find A good response but have yet to find one Please help.
Side question
In numbers chapter 5 those defiled were removed from the camp for skin disease bodily discharge touching dead bodies.
My question is what is the meaning of defiled? and what is the reason for removal from the camp, health reasons?
Thank you much
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Richard K on -
These are great questions. The primary post relates to whether Pretorism, Pre-Trib, Post trib etc., is the most likely 'true' eschotology.
There maybe those who disagree, and I'd be happy to hear those POVs, just because I still don't have a definitive answer for the various eschotologies.
What I might say about the question, and whether or not the Apostles knew what they were talking about, what I've always considered Paul's, letter to the Thessalonians to say, is that , You won't see the Rapture until there is 'first' a manifestation of the 'Son of Perdition'. So Paul wasn't saying that the 'End' was at hand , so much as he was clarifying that sequence of events leading up to the 'End', and that it may occur 'anytime'.
Another 'sign' was: "...until the time of the gentiles be fulfilled". What does that mean?.
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Permalink Reply by Brian Guiley on -
I'm not aware that any of these people stated, at least in scripture, that Christ would come back in their lifetime. They often advise to be watchful, and ready, but none said anything like "before I die he will return". In fact they all would have known that even Christ didn't know when, as he stated in Matthew.
That being said, if they indicated it extra-scriptural, then that would not be 'inspired' and as such, subject to the fallibility we all have.
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Permalink Reply by Mariana on
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The only person that explicitly said something like that is Jesus, with variations in MT 16:28, MK 9:1 and LK 9:27: I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. Paul expressed the sentiment in 1CO 7:29-31: What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.
The term "defiled" means that one is in a state of ritual defilement, that is, a state of religious impurity. Only those that were ritually pure were allowed to be in the presence of the tabernacle and God. They were removed from the camp (usually until sundown) as part of the cleansing ritual. It's unlikely that the reasons were for health (since most of the cleansing rituals wouldn't actually remove or destroy anything contagious), but were symbolic of the maintenance of ritual purity. Ultimately, the answer is because God told them to do it that way.
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Permalink Reply by Richard K on
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Mariana said:The only person that explicitly said something like that is Jesus, with variations in MT 16:28, MK 9:1 and LK 9:27: I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. Paul expressed the sentiment in 1CO 7:29-31: What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.
The term "defiled" means that one is in a state of ritual defilement, that is, a state of religious impurity. Only those that were ritually pure were allowed to be in the presence of the tabernacle and God. They were removed from the camp (usually until sundown) as part of the cleansing ritual. It's unlikely that the reasons were for health (since most of the cleansing rituals wouldn't actually remove or destroy anything contagious), but were symbolic of the maintenance of ritual purity. Ultimately, the answer is because God told them to do it that way.
ICor. chapter 7 isn't really talking about any kind of End Time scenario as far as I can tell. The topic seemed to be about the influences of how our commitments to this world, can effect our Spititual relationship with Christ and the duties we might walk in for the Gospel.
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Permalink Reply by John Vasen on -
Well said.
I would offer the term "ceremonially unclean" which is really the same as "ritual defilement".
In the OT, God was teaching Israel that they were unfit for His presence without His provision. Ceremonial uncleanness was one aspect of this in the sense that the Israelite must always be vigilant to stay "clean". No one could worship in the Temple unless they were ceremonially clean.
But in a larger sense, the point was that human could never be good enough to reach God. By trying to follow all the laws given by Moses, the person would find that it was impossible, especially after Jesus pointed out that it was not just the external actions, but the attitudes of the heart. Paul says "Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law so that every mouth may be stopped and the world may be held accountable to God." Rom 3:19, and "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Rom 3:23. See the whole discussion in Romans 3 and compare Galations 3:21 ff.
Mariana said:The only person that explicitly said something like that is Jesus, with variations in MT 16:28, MK 9:1 and LK 9:27: I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. Paul expressed the sentiment in 1CO 7:29-31: What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.
The term "defiled" means that one is in a state of ritual defilement, that is, a state of religious impurity. Only those that were ritually pure were allowed to be in the presence of the tabernacle and God. They were removed from the camp (usually until sundown) as part of the cleansing ritual. It's unlikely that the reasons were for health (since most of the cleansing rituals wouldn't actually remove or destroy anything contagious), but were symbolic of the maintenance of ritual purity. Ultimately, the answer is because God told them to do it that way.
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Permalink Reply by Richard K on
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So what are the times that the Apostles expected the End of the Age in their lifetimes, in Scripture?
This must be a Biblical question using outside sources.
Don't expect that history is valid, or that there is a need for manipulated history to make the Bible real to us. Predorism is based mostly on historical secularism and numerology as far as I could tell, so I wouldn't use end times belief system as Gospel.
The very reason we can't be dogmatic about End Times scenarios is because the Apostles' letters weren't specific enough, for us to have any real clues. :)
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Permalink Reply by Francis M Russell on -
Mariana, you made a good point with Jesus’ remarks recorded in Matt 16: 24-28, Lk 9: 27-36 and Mark 9: 1-13.
Jesus was true to his word when some of those present witnessed his Transfiguration. It seems to me that it was no coincidence that immediately following Jesus’ remarks that all three synoptic gospel writers recount the Transfiguration event. Peter also refers to this other- worldly scene in 2 Peter 1: 16-18. I am in no doubt that Peter, James and John (curiously John doesn’t mention this event in his gospel account) were privileged and, I daresay, honoured to preview Jesus as we will see Him when He comes to collect us at the rapture. Compare the description of the transfigured Jesus to that of his appearance as noted by John in Rev 1:12-16 (note the second part of vs 16).
Mariana said:The only person that explicitly said something like that is Jesus, with variations in MT 16:28, MK 9:1 and LK 9:27: I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. Paul expressed the sentiment in 1CO 7:29-31: What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.
The term "defiled" means that one is in a state of ritual defilement, that is, a state of religious impurity. Only those that were ritually pure were allowed to be in the presence of the tabernacle and God. They were removed from the camp (usually until sundown) as part of the cleansing ritual. It's unlikely that the reasons were for health (since most of the cleansing rituals wouldn't actually remove or destroy anything contagious), but were symbolic of the maintenance of ritual purity. Ultimately, the answer is because God told them to do it that way.
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Permalink Reply by Francis M Russell on
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Jeb, as Brian pointed out, there doesn’t seem to be any particular scriptural verse where any of the apostles claim that Christ would appear in their lifetime.
Having said that there are a few verses where some of the NT writers speak of the imminence of Christ’s return. I would liken this to a weatherman’s forecast of, for example, a hurricane that is making its way across the sea and the likely area where it will make landfall. From various atmospheric data he can not only see where the hurricane is but also plot its most likely route, thus giving ample warning to people living in the path of the storm to make preparation for when it does finally arrive. There is usually a sense of urgency in these hurricane warnings which are based on the power and potency of these storms as well as their relatively short journeys as they traverse the oceans in unstoppable mode. So is the return of Christ: imminent, unstoppable and full of power and glory!
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Permalink Reply by Brian Guiley on
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An excellent article on the reason for our 66 books (dealing with the apocrypha).
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n4/why-66
The 'inspiration' of the scripture (the books later compiled) was well established and accepted by the early church leaders. Some of the books state that they are under inspiration, some state that other books are inspired. If you doubt the authenticity of our Bible, then how do you determine what is God's word (now some 2000 years after Christ)? Does God tell you directly? Is it different than the Bible I use?
Glenn Graham said:
Brian Guiley said:That being said, if they indicated it extra-scriptural, then that would not be 'inspired' and as such, subject to the fallibility we all have.
This is a statement that is quite ignorant in matters of history, for how can we be sure that those who gathered scripture into 1 book in the 300sAD were 'inspired' to 'know' the Word of God from that which was not, 270+ years AFTER it was spoken? and did they not include the Apocrypha in the bible? where are those books today?
The Word of God speaks for Itself - I will not leave it to men to tell me what is the Word of God and what is not.
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