Fantastic ICR article on the flood boundary in the rock/fossil sequences. Fantastic

There was a fantastic ICR (acts/facts jan) article by Tim Clarey in which, it seems to me, a rare aggresive assertion was made by YEC researchers that the flood boundary , as indicated by fossils and rock stratas was at the k-Pg9formerly k-t) line.

this is very importabnt. Many YEC thinkers who reach audiences hjave said it was the ice age etc etc. In fact these YEC always have to explain why the mammal tyopes were at the top and dinos etc below. they did talk about faster runners etc etc.

Yet with it being the k-Pg line it eliminates this problem and many othyers.

That means all fossilized fauna/flora on top of the k-Pg line are from later events. A few centuries later at most.

This becoming a major tenet in yEC would change so much. it was, I understood, a minority opinion amongst thinkers.

I wish ICR would do a article explaining this whole issue.

Anyways great article Clarey  

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My biggest comment, in the last 10 years, new fossil treasure troves in China and other countries show that some mega fauna and even modern animals were in conjunction with dinosaur. There are many YEC brothers that infer that elephant species existed after the flood, in ice age that followed the flood?  I am not sure how this affects YEC views but there is a host of issues surrounding fossils that go unexplained. THe fact that Dinos and mega fauna contain measurable C-14 in their actual bones, this must infer that these creatures are recent..  Obviously a dinosaur implied to be 67 million years old could not contain C-14 in it at that age, as the half life of C-14 5,500 Years.  As I understand it, no one is able to identify the assumed flood line through out the world.  YECs need a better evidence base.  Just saying.



Lou Hamby said:

My biggest comment, in the last 10 years, new fossil treasure troves in China and other countries show that some mega fauna and even modern animals were in conjunction with dinosaur. There are many YEC brothers that infer that elephant species existed after the flood, in ice age that followed the flood?  I am not sure how this affects YEC views but there is a host of issues surrounding fossils that go unexplained. THe fact that Dinos and mega fauna contain measurable C-14 in their actual bones, this must infer that these creatures are recent..  Obviously a dinosaur implied to be 67 million years old could not contain C-14 in it at that age, as the half life of C-14 5,500 Years.  As I understand it, no one is able to identify the assumed flood line through out the world.  YECs need a better evidence base.  Just saying.

The flood line would be a problem. The great line however is the fauna/flora line.

The other side uses it to say a spacve rock hit and caused extinctions.

YEC can use it too. I think its a good line. so anything above the k-t line is after the flood. the line and below is from the flood year.

YEC has disagreed. many try to see the ice age as the start of the post flood world. i am confident its the k-pg line. the fossils of fauna/flora make this case for me. its simple.

So i'm glad to see ICR also suggesting this is the true division. it moves things along.

Actually, on the whole, creationists are in substantial agreement about the Flood strata - we are of the opinion that MOST of the strata after the Cambrian are from the Flood. There are some minor differences about the end point. 

Interestingly for some objectors to Creation truth they point to any disagreement as "confusion" and at the same time they point to any agreement a "Lock-step" mentality or a conspiracy of controlling insiders.

But the matter of identifying the Flood strata there is in fact substantial agreement about the great majority of the strata - that most were deposited by the Flood, during the Flood.

Lou Hamby said:

As I understand it, no one is able to identify the assumed flood line through out the world.  YECs need a better evidence base.  Just saying.



Jim Brenneman said:

Actually, on the whole, creationists are in substantial agreement about the Flood strata - we are of the opinion that MOST of the strata after the Cambrian are from the Flood. There are some minor differences about the end point. 

Interestingly for some objectors to Creation truth they point to any disagreement as "confusion" and at the same time they point to any agreement a "Lock-step" mentality or a conspiracy of controlling insiders.

But the matter of identifying the Flood strata there is in fact substantial agreement about the great majority of the strata - that most were deposited by the Flood, during the Flood.

Lou Hamby said:

As I understand it, no one is able to identify the assumed flood line through out the world.  YECs need a better evidence base.  Just saying.


Well i have read conflicting opinions. some say the k-t line and others say the ice age, which means above the k-t line would also be from the flood.
I see the k-t line as clearly the flood line. this due to the assemblage of fossil types and the less depositional elements above the k-t line.
this is most likely right. YEC should not say othyerwise.
i don't know about this cambrian thing. i don't see any Cambrian as reral. its all just from the flood year bELOW the k-t line.

Robert, among creationists there is no real conflict. All agree that the Flood is represented by all the strata between Pre-Cambrian and the K-T Line. When we talk about the "Flood-line" we must remember that there is a beginning and an ending to the Flood.

I am pretty sure that Robert understands this - but many uninformed individuals seem to think that there should be "One Strata" identified with the Flood. That of course is ludicrous. Even a local flood like the Mt. St. Helens event, or even daily ocean tides produce multiple strata - and a flood of a year's duration would produce hundreds and hundreds of feet, even thousands of feet of strata.

All creationists are in agreement about the strata the represent the year of the Flood - with the Flood beginning with the Cambrian deposits and concluding at the end of the Mesozoic. Some are of the opinion that the Flood extends into the Cenozoic - but this is a minor difference in the larger scheme of things.

Robert Byers said:

Well i have read conflicting opinions. some say the k-t line and others say the ice age, which means above the k-t line would also be from the flood.
I see the k-t line as clearly the flood line. this due to the assemblage of fossil types and the less depositional elements above the k-t line.
this is most likely right. YEC should not say othyerwise.
i don't know about this cambrian thing. i don't see any Cambrian as reral. its all just from the flood year bELOW the k-t line.



Jim Brenneman said:

Robert, among creationists there is no real conflict. All agree that the Flood is represented by all the strata between Pre-Cambrian and the K-T Line. When we talk about the "Flood-line" we must remember that there is a beginning and an ending to the Flood.

I am pretty sure that Robert understands this - but many uninformed individuals seem to think that there should be "One Strata" identified with the Flood. That of course is ludicrous. Even a local flood like the Mt. St. Helens event, or even daily ocean tides produce multiple strata - and a flood of a year's duration would produce hundreds and hundreds of feet, even thousands of feet of strata.

All creationists are in agreement about the strata the represent the year of the Flood - with the Flood beginning with the Cambrian deposits and concluding at the end of the Mesozoic. Some are of the opinion that the Flood extends into the Cenozoic - but this is a minor difference in the larger scheme of things.

Robert Byers said:

Well i have read conflicting opinions. some say the k-t line and others say the ice age, which means above the k-t line would also be from the flood.
I see the k-t line as clearly the flood line. this due to the assemblage of fossil types and the less depositional elements above the k-t line.
this is most likely right. YEC should not say othyerwise.
i don't know about this cambrian thing. i don't see any Cambrian as reral. its all just from the flood year bELOW the k-t line.
it would not be creationists but thinking creationists aware of organized creationism.
YES the k-t line should be the flood line. I understood MANY YEC thought it was up into the cenzoic. This being a important error.
I don't agree about pre cambrian or mesozoic. tHese words mean nothing to me. 
Yes a beginning and end of the flood year. i don't think we have anything on earth that the pre flood world saw or could touch.
also many YEC try to say the ice age was right after the flood. tHis would interfere with the k-t line timeframe.
anyways the k-t line should be the line.
yes its wrong to see a single strata as the flood one.
All deposition observed below the k-t line is the flood event. 
Robert said:
  • yes its wrong to see a single strata as the flood one.
  • All deposition observed below the k-t line is the flood event. 
This is the position of most creationists in mainstream organizations. There are some minor disagreements about what represents the end of the Flood. The problem is that the record of the strata is not precisely the same all over the world. The secularists have defined and labeled the geology based on their assumptions.

It is good to see that Robert shares this view as held by all creationist - that everything prior to Tertiary is from the Flood deposits, or before. Nothing of the preFlood terrestrial
surface world remains.

Jim one of the greatest archeologic discoveries of recent times is the Diary of Meres.
Meres was one of the engineers over the building of Kufu's Pyramid.  His boss was Kufu's Brother.  HE not only explains how the blocks were quarried and moved and from where, but he gives an exact date of his writing. So it seems they were building Kufu's Pyramid before the flood.  It still existents today? We also know that that Caral Supe civilization in Peru existed before the building of this Pyramid, and tis area still exists today with its ziggurats? 

Given your statement above about pre-flood, we must assume the Cambrian fossil bed on mount Everest must have been laid down during the flood and the Grand Hieghts of Mount Everest came to fruition after the flood?  It seems this would have been recorded by the indigenous peoples of the area, but there 8,000 year old writings have no mention of this except at the writing it already existed? 

Again as a creationist I struggle with some of these assertions.  How a year long flood lays down strata with only certain species of animal life one on top of the other, the heaviest often at the top but then on the other hand we have places in Texas where the marine layer is on the top?  So there doesn't seem to be a consistency no matter if your Creationists or an evolutionist? 

Instead of being critical of real information, can you address these issues?  Or do you outright reject these known facts...

It was out of Sumer that the Egyptian culture came into being?  There are 7 huge areas in the Sumer area of ancient times that not only have cuneiform brick writing that still exists but buildings and ziggurats?  Do you assume Sumer was a post flood civilization, or does the bible clearly speak of Adams offspring building on the plain of Shinar pre-flood? 

IF God created dinos and others prior to the flood in the Geneisis account and lived in conjunction with man, one might expect to find pre-flood fossilized animal remains?  there are several ways fossils can come to fruition.  

so I am not so sure the K/T line is definable across the face of the earth, and I quesiton the efficacy of this theory... I think there are other possible Christian explanations for what we do observe. Somehow we forget the mighty works of GODs creative hand in the 6 days. 

Again I assume when GOD said he rested, he was finished with his creative acts, unless you assume some other explanation for the "bad" things post Fall that would have to show up?

Lou - why do you insist on making such accusations as this?

Instead of being critical of real information, can you address these issues? Or do you outright reject these known facts...

If you are really a friend of us here at Creation Conversations, will you please stop making such accusations as this. You have just told us that we are "Critical of real information." That is offensive. That is a slam against our scholarship. You are saying that we are being dishonest with the Data. You are saying that we are denying science. PLEASE STOP IT.

All creationists in the mainstream affirm the Global Flood. We all believe that the top of Mt Everest was once the OCEAN FLOOR - that the Cambrian Strata are the first deposits of the Global Flood.

The pyramids of Egypt are situated ON TOP of Flood deposited Strata. Therefore they are from after the Flood. The Dating of "8000 year-old" is incorrect. Whatever date you choose to assign to Egypt - the Bible makes it clear that "Egypt" began after the Flood. Egypt (Heb. Mitzrayim) is a descendant of Ham, the son of Noah.

In this group we accept that the biblical record is absolute and accurate. The dating of the secularists is incorrect and inaccurate.

Ignoring you inflammatory accusations, I will respond to your questions - but clearly these are not questions for which you seek answers, since over the past 7 years every one of these questions has already been answered, many times:


Lou Hamby said:

Jim one of the greatest archeologic discoveries of recent times is the Diary of Meres.

  • Jim one of the greatest archeologic discoveries of recent times is the Diary of Meres. Meres was one of the engineers over the building of Kufu's Pyramid.  His boss was Kufu's Brother.  HE not only explains how the blocks were quarried and moved and from where, but he gives an exact date of his writing.

So, you want us to accept the "exact date" provided in an uninspired pagan document? But you cannot accept the dates and statements of Genesis 5 and 11?

__________________

  • So it seems they were building Kufu's Pyramid before the flood.

No, this pyramid was not built before the Flood. And I still wonder what you mean by the Flood? When did this flood that you refer to take place?

The Flood that we believe in occurred several generations prior to the founding of Egypt by Mitsrayim (מִצְרַיִם), the son of Ham (Gen. 10:6). As long as we are not on the same page about the meaning of the word "Flood" and the historicity of that event we will be hopelessly mired in miss-communications.
_______________

  • It still in existence today? We also know that that Caral Supe civilization in Peru existed before the building of this Pyramid, and tis area still exists today with its ziggurats? 

All of the civilizations of the world are from AFTER the Flood. This is stated quite clearly in Genesis 10.
__________________

  • Given your statement above about pre-flood, we must assume the Cambrian fossil bed on mount Everest must have been laid down during the flood and the Grand Hieghts of Mount Everest came to fruition after the flood? 

The top of Everest was the ocean floor before the Flood. Yes, the heights of Everest came to fruition during and after the Flood. The very rock of Everest was once the sea floor.
_______________

  • It seems this would have been recorded by the indigenous peoples of the area, but their 8,000 year old writings have no mention of this except at the writing it already existed?

Whether you want to say "8,000-year old" or 10,000 - no matter what the date you choose - the Flood of the Bible took place prior to that time that you believe in so firmly.

Now, no matter what the time, HOW could the indigenous peoples of the area possibly write about it? They all perished in the Flood. BUT THERE is a written record of it - but you don't accept it.

Now it really incumbent upon YOU to explain how Everest came into existence within YOUR OWN time-frame of Young Earth (Less than 15,000 years). How did it form? But as you have done over the past 7 years, you will continue to ignore our questions and you will keep claiming that we are ignoring "real information."
___________________

  • Again - as a creationist, I struggle with some of these assertions. How a year long flood lays down strata with only certain species of animal life one on top of the other, the heaviest often at the top but then on the other hand we have places in Texas where the marine layer is on the top? So there doesn't seem to be a consistency no matter if your Creationists or an evolutionist?

Our creationist scientists have discussed these matters at length. But you ignore the real information about observational science and continue to raise your speculative "struggle." The year-long flood occurred. That is a fact. It covered the whole planet for 150+ days, and then subsided, subjecting the earth to residual effects for several centuries following. The phenomena that we witness in the strata is exactly the conditions that we would expect after a year long global Flood, with countless tsunamis washing back and forth across the globe. You are trying to unscramble eggs while at the same time denying the facts revealed in the text of Genesis 6--9.
However, creationist geologists who affirm the biblical flood have made a great deal of progress in identifying the processes by which the strata were deposited -Cambrian through Permian in the Paleozoic, and Triassic, Jurassic, and Cretaceous in the Mesozoic.
________________

  • Instead of being critical of real information, can you address these issues?  Or do you outright reject these known facts...

    It was out of Sumer that the Egyptian culture came into being?  There are 7 huge areas in the Sumer area of ancient times that not only have cuneiform brick writing that still exists but buildings and ziggurats?  Do you assume Sumer was a post flood civilization, or does the bible clearly speak of Adams offspring building on the plain of Shinar pre-flood? 

I'm not sure which Bible you are reading, but our Bible explicitly states that is was not Adam's offspring, but NOAH'S who built in the Plain of Shinar AFTER the Flood (Gen. 11:1-2). We believe the Bible in this group. I am sure that you believe the same Bible - and this Bible that you believe states plainly that Egypt arose AFTER the Flood, as did Sumer. And it is the secularists who say that Egypt arose from Sumer. The Bible states that Egypt was a direct grandson of Noah, the son of Ham. Since you reject the biblical fact of the Flood, then you have no place in any conversation to talk about what was pre-flood or what was post-flood. FOR US IN THIS GROUP, the Flood is a given. And we know that Egypt arose after the Flood - so no matter what date you accept for Egypt - it is after the Flood that we affirm and believe in.
____________

  • IF God created dinos and others prior to the flood in the Genesis account and lived in conjunction with man, one might expect to find pre-flood fossilized animal remains?  there are several ways fossils can come to fruition.  

There are millions of pre-Flood animal remains. And in these strata we have thus far found no human remains. There is no way to fit the millions of fossils in hundreds of feet of strata in any Young Earth Model apart from the Global Flood. You have asked us to explain this countless times - and we have explained it repeatedly - but meanwhile you have never even given the first sentence of an explanation of the BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of fossils in any kind of model that excludes the Global Flood. Please show your integrity and honesty by giving us some hint of an alternative explanation.
And, while there are various processes by which fossils form, and there are several different forms of fossils - not all are "mineralized" - but by far the vast majority of mineralized fossils were formed by burial in flood-deposited sediments. So Far dear friend and brother Lou, you have provided no alternative explanations as to how these billions of fossils were formed in a few thousand years time between Creation and the time of Egypt. If there was no global Flood there is no explanation for global Fossils. You remain mute on this vital question. It is you dear brother, you are the one who is "being critical of real information," it is you who refuses to "address these issues" and it is you, not us at Creation Conversations who continues to "outright reject these known facts..."
_________________

  • so I am not so sure the K/T line is definable across the face of the earth, and I quesiton the efficacy of this theory... I think there are other possible Christian explanations for what we do observe. Somehow we forget the mighty works of God's creative hand in the 6 days.

Now you are accusing us of forgetting the Six Days of Creation. Can you please STOP IT? Stop with these sorts of accusations against creationists.

And of course there is no definable K/T line across the Earth. There is no way that any human will ever be able to unscramble eggs. But the geologists and computer modelers came up with some very intriguing proposals at ICC-18 in Pittsburgh. You really should look into these things and that way you would be able to stop betraying your disinterest in the real information that is available for any sincere questioner. You are a scientist, a scholar, and a brilliant academic - so surely it is not so far beneath you to do a little reading.
______________

  • Again I assume when GOD said he rested, he was finished with his creative acts, unless you assume some other explanation for the "bad" things post Fall that would have to show up?

And how many times will you repeat this lame objection? The Bible is clear that things were different after the Fall. This is stated explicitly by God Himself in His judgements after Adam ate of the fruit (Gen. 3:13-24). Yet, you are telling us that we are believing in on-going creation.
Well the fact that God completed the work of the original creation in six days, and rested on the Seventh is also a given for us here at Creation Conversations. But at the same time - God created within each of the original "Kinds" of Genesis One the amazing potential to MULTIPLY in their diversity. So, just like out of a single parent pair (Adam & Eve) we have all the various people groups in the earth today - "Red and Yellow, Black and White, they are precious in God's sight." So also, God created an original dog/canine kind - and from those have arisen many breeds and variations - wolves, coyotes, jackals, foxes, domesticated dogs with all their breeds - all in the genetics of those TWO that were on the Ark.

Moreover, I should add that the Bible which we believe shows that God can do additional acts of creation anytime He so chooses - specifically in the areas of Redemption and Judgment - but you have never been willing to take the time to study this out from the Scripture. You will just keep raising the objection without ever listening to the answer. You are not asking questions and you are not "struggling" with this. You are adamantly holding to your view and you refuse to listen to the answers.

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