Fossil Formation: WHEN in relation to the Flood?

With apologies to Mr. Oard I am moving this discussion from the ASK THE EXPERT section which should be reserved for HIS answers. So in the interest of discontinuing the hijacking of his page I will move it here:

First of all the original question of Jeb Smith:

MR oard, about what % of all fossils do you place as flood deposited fossils?

AND

Just to add onto the last, what % fossils are ice age fossils and do you know how many ice age fossils total there are?

followed by elaboration of the question (by Jim Brenneman)

To add to Jeb Smith's question, I wonder about the percentages of fossils from three time frames:

Those FORMED pre-flood, We would think there are a very few PRE-Flood fossils, since the very material used to form fossils would have been ground up materials of the earth's land surface, including any pre-flood rock containing a rare fossil.
Those FORMED during the Flood year - very many Flood-generated fossils,
Those FORMED post-fllood. And we should expect a considerable number of fossils formed since the flood, due to residual flood events, like glacial run-off, the breaking of natural "dams" of ice or mud, to cause massive local inundations of blossoming animal populations in verdant areas below these water reservoirs.

For my part this question would relate to

all fossils in existence buried in the earth's crust on the one hand,
and also the break down of fossils that are currently being studied in labs and museums - those that are no longer in situ, but which have been removed from the ground.

I would think a big number of those under study are indeed post-Flood (anthropological specimens as well as stone age fauna). But on the whole are we correct in assuming that the vast majority of all the fossils in the earth were produced by the Flood (that is representing animals that were living at the time of the onset of the Flood, and some also which might have been born early in the Flood year)?

Of course we know that any "percentage" would be put forward wholly for illustrative purposes and would never be considered as a technically precise figure.

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Permalink Reply by Jim Brenneman on April 12, 2012 at 5:37pm

Something can be "not good" due to the fact that God has not YET completed a creative work. God never creates anything that is "not good." I agree with Brian, that we cannot say "there were no further acts of creation following that."

Thank God that He continues to create in His work of redemption. This creation of redemption is the reason we live in Him (2 Cor. 5:17)! Within God's redemptive work there are often CREATIVE MIRACLES, as Brian noted.

Still it seems to me that since the Scripture says, the works were finished, that would mean that no new things were created at the Fall.. Rather things were modified from within their genetic coding. All kinds remained the same kinds, but those kinds could express new traits that were derived from DNA passed on from the kinds of the creation week.

In the original creation (very good) it is said, that not every plant and not every herb had yet grown (Gen. 2:5). God had spoken them into existence and they were all there in the potential of the kinds that appeared in the six days of creation. God manipulated, modified, relocated plants and animals when He "planted a garden eastward in Eden." What is involved in planting a garden?

In the days after the Fall, we were told by God the the earth would bring forth "thorns also and thistles" (Gen. 3:18). Here it seems to me, we have a verse telling us that new forms of the creation week kinds would appear. They were added to the Creation, but not as new kinds, rather as new forms of the same kinds.

Thorn and talon, fang and thistle are merely new forms of those Creation Week kinds. Predator and Prey were not new created "kinds," but they were the same "kinds" as the creation week, but expresses traits which had been present in the genes of those creation week kinds, but recessive. This means that these traits would now be brought forth from the already created kinds.

Serpents would be modified in form. Humans would be modified in form. They would now bring forth new forms of the Human kind - sinners.

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Permalink Reply by Jim Brenneman on April 12, 2012 at 10:35pm

The question here is about the time frame for the fossils that are found all over the earth in thousands of feet of strata, from mountain tops to ocean depths. When and how were these fossils formed?

In the secular mainstream, it is believed that the fossils have been formed since more than three billion years ago, in the Arachaean Eon, up until more recently in the Holocene Epoch of a mere 10,000 years ago.

The great abundance of fossils all over the earth must be accounted for in a span of time amounting to more than three billion years according to all scientists who do not embrace the biblical narrative of an earth that was created just 6000 years ago. A great many Christians do not believe the earth is young precisely because they see no way to account for the hundreds of layers of strata in thousands of feet of sedimentary rock. So they resort to a novel interpretation of the Bible in which they endeavor to somehow make the narrative of Genesis jive with their understanding of supposed incontrovertible evidence in the geology of the earth.

For those of us who embrace the revelation of about 6000 years as factual, and not mythology, how do we account for the layer upon layer of sediments and how do we account for the trillions of fossils in the earth?

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Permalink Reply by Lou Hamby on April 12, 2012 at 11:07pm

Jim I have no real solid answer for your questions but when I read an article about the ice cores, there were dark and light cores that represented more than one core layer per year. SO here is my question completely off the wall, could there have been some yearly or every two years or so cataclysmic thing that affected the earths sedimentary layers? Esepcially if I take a tupperware of sand and fill with water and rock back and forth I can not get layers of sediment to stay cohesive or to mound up?

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Permalink Reply by Richard K on April 13, 2012 at 8:54am

Jim B. said, "For those of us who embrace the revelation of about 6000 years as factual, and not mythology, how do we account for the layer upon layer of sediments and how do we account for the trillions of fossils in the earth?"

From the deepest layer to the top layer of the geologic column, these layer spread uniformally across the surface of the planet. Your tupperware container is now a ball with mud mixing all across its circumfence over and over again. The ball is spinning and the mud is sloshing all around as a result of eruptions and crust bottoming out. That didn't happen again and again, because the separated soil have now lithofied and would necessarily have to be "Reliquified" in order to set up the scenario once more, besides, it would kill everything that live on land.

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Permalink Reply by Lou Hamby on April 13, 2012 at 9:58am

Wait Richard---what mechanism laid down these layers? IF it was the flood, then fine, but its not clear what your actually saying or assuming. Also you do not speak to the amount of fossils that are clearly distributed all through the sediments not just one layer????

"The ball is spinning and the mud is sloshing all around as a result of eruptions and crust bottoming out."

Will you please explain this mechanism in more detail and not assume that we understand what your saying..because I don't see your explanation as being any better, but we all observe sediments with fossils, no doubt?

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Permalink Reply by Jim Brenneman on April 13, 2012 at 11:59am

Lou Hamby said:

Jim I have no real solid answer for your questions but when I read an article about the ice cores, there were dark and light cores that represented more than one core layer per year.

Ice cores article? And the dates revealed by ice cores whether from the Andes or Greenland or Antarctica always present themselves as factual actual irrefutable tens of thousands of years, well beyond the actual factual math of the Bible. Which will we chose to accept? And which well we choose to adapt, modify, adjust and re-interpret?

SO here is my question completely off the wall, could there have been some yearly or every two years or so cataclysmic thing that affected the earths sedimentary layers?

So rather than the SINGLE, never before seen and never again repeated event that the Bible DOES reveal and narrate we are now going to imagine annual global cataclysmic things? A bit of a stretch for me?

Esepcially if I take a tupperware of sand and fill with water and rock back and forth I can not get layers of sediment to stay cohesive or to mound up?

How do we account for trillions of fossils in thousands of feet of strata found all over the world from pole to pole and from mountain top to ocean depths? The layers do not appear in a randomly shaken tupperware container because apparently this "experiment" does not illustrate well whatever mechanisms produce the layers that we DO actually witness on the surface of the earth all around the world. Not there in Tupperware, but they are there in an earth that has been here for only 6000 years. How did the layers get in the earth?

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Permalink Reply by Lou Hamby on April 13, 2012 at 12:29pm

Good question Jim, any answers for my coal beds? We can't deny the obvious sedimentary layers.. You know Jim God might have used tupperware, except his works and mine don't......HA! So the question here is are the fossils a product of one and only one mechanism, or are their other possible explanations as to how layers were formed....:0)

One point that I would like to have you clear up, and hopefully others as well. Is there any possibility that "a" pre-flood

mechanism could be responsible for some of this since all layers do not contain fossils, some are vertical other horizontal, and so for the sake of discussion all inferences with respect to this topic should be post-flood?

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Permalink Reply by Mary White on April 13, 2012 at 1:53pm

Information on ice cores - see www.icr.org/article/are-polar-ice-sheets-only-4500-years-old/ Also you may find its footnoted articles from Creation ExNihilo Technical Journal at www.creation.com. Oard also wrote an ICR technical monograph published in 2005 titled The Frozen Record. Until I read through it (almost 200 pages!) I did not understand how much the Evolutionary-Uniformitarian model influenced the data interpretation. Also very interesting that data can be used to support only a few thousand years worth of ice sheet movement. (In the monograph under 'The Creation-Flood Model Is More Likely.")

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Permalink Reply by Richard K on April 14, 2012 at 7:55am

Lou H. said, "Will you please explain this mechanism in more detail and not assume that we understand what your saying..because I don't see your explanation as being any better, but we all observe sediments with fossils, no doubt?"

Well, if the entire globe is covered with water and all the elements were in suspension as mud, and the earth it rotating, so this mud slurry thousands of feet deep it moving acroos the face of the planet. I believe the slurry would be flowing from West to East, just as the atmosphere does. Is that true?

So to me, it seems logical that anything and everything, is either floating or somewhere in that mud, once it sinks.

With our CGI technology, it would be great fun if there was a video made about how the flood may have been experienced, not only by Noah, but by the critters in all layers, as they were being depositted. Highlighting the Maelstroms that must have created those bone yards that we find, and whether they occurred regularily or only after the waters assuaged.

I hope this was an adequate clarification. :)