In your opinion, what are the toughest apologetic challenges to the Christian faith?
We have been practicing some apologetics in my Bible study, and there has been a request to start dealing with some of the toughest apologetic challenges to the Christian faith. Now, there is of course an element of subjectivity to this kind of evaluation, but that's why I want to get a variety of opinions. What do you think are some of the most difficult challenged to Christianity?
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Permalink Reply by Sean Quigley on -
For me, I think it's always ones to do with God's Nature, and how His qualities of Omnipresence, Omnipotence, and Omniscience among others always seem to make Him contradictory or evil. An example is one time I was discussing with an Atheist and he gave the arguments of what would be the point of praying to God if He already knew what that person wanted, or what would be the point of praying for someone dying if God already knows they will die, or what would be the point of God bringing someone to live on the earth if God knew they were going to hell. Stuff like that.
Another that one that I have pondered about for a while is how when Jesus was demonstrating to the disciples how to pray, one part of the prayer was "lead us not into temptation" and I was confused by that because in the Bible also says that the Lord does not tempt people.
Those would be my thoughts on the toughest apologetic questions. What do you guys think?
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Permalink Reply by Richard K on -
Sean Quigley said:... Atheist and he gave the arguments of what would be the point of praying to God if He already knew what that person wanted, or what would be the point of praying for someone dying if God already knows they will die, or what would be the point of God bringing someone to live on the earth if God knew they were going to hell. Stuff like that.
... What do you guys think?
I know what the Grandkids want, most of the time, when they are hanging around our place. I could tell them "yes" or "no", about a lot of things I percieve going through their little heads, before they ever focussed their attention to those thoughts.
What type of relationship would we develop if I spent our time together, catering to their thoughts and desires rather than, them asking and discussing things as they occur?
I know of people who 'pray', when they are in need, pray when they are in want, pray for others needs, and give thanks without ceasing. Others are too dull witted to even have a respectful interchange with The Father.
That's JMO, What does the Bible say?
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Permalink Reply by Richard K on
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I think the toughest hurdle in discussing anything with anyone is , Pride, or more generally, Emotional Attitudes. I find that most people do not want to be required to 'think', but rather 'feel' truth and error.
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Permalink Reply by Sean Quigley on
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Another problem to Christianity that I have read Atheists use is this one "why would god create a universe in which he knew in advance, that at least 90% of the people in it would burn in hell for all eternity?"
I got that one from here http://imgur.com/6XMl3
How would you guys to what this guy says?
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Permalink Reply by Justin Mooney on -
Short answer (I don't have much time at the moment): First, we don't actually know that at least 90% of people end up in Hell. But even if that is the case, it is possible that the perceived deficiencies of this world are ultimately outweighed by morally good states of affairs in the total world. No one who goes to hell is being treated unfairly (everyone deserves hell), so the only question that remains is why God would desire such a world when presumably (given his love for humanity) it saddens him to see so many in hell. The answer, then depends on God's desires and preferences. Perhaps there are overriding goods that make this world desirable overall.
Sean Quigley said:Another problem to Christianity that I have read Atheists use is this one "why would god create a universe in which he knew in advance, that at least 90% of the people in it would burn in hell for all eternity?"
I got that one from here http://imgur.com/6XMl3
How would you guys to what this guy says?
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Permalink Reply by Sean Quigley on
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I see, I guess if you have the time, could you give a more detailed answer?
That way I can give a better answer to an Atheist in case I get this question. It seems to be a popular question to ask these days.
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Permalink Reply by Justin Mooney on
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Alright let me give this another (more detialed) go:
Consider the question as you posed it originally:
"Why would god create a universe in which he knew in advance that at least 90% of the people in it would burn in hell for all eternity?"
First, this question presupposes counterfactual knowledge, not foreknowledge. If God simply foreknew (knew in advance) what was going to happen, we couldn't blame him at all. Because once God foreknows something, it follows that it is going to happen. God couldn't then decide to refrain from creating the world, becuase if he did that then he would not have foreknown that such a world was going to happen. Like I said, it is counterfactual knowledge that is relevant here--God's knowledge of what would happen (not what will happen, per se) if he were to create such a world. However, since I believe that God does have such knowledge, the challenge still stands.
What the question seems to be trying to get at is an apparent tension within Christian doctrine; a tension between the love of God for humanity and his actualization of a world in which so many people end up in hell. Is such a God compatible with that state of affairs? The first point that needs to be emphasized is that we don't actually have to answer the question that was posed per se in order to demonstrate that God's loving character and the fate of humanity are compatible. In answer to the question, we can simply say "I don't know," and this answer is perfectly logically adequate, so long as we maintain that there is some possible reason why a God with a loving character as the Bible describes him might choose to actualize that state of affairs. We don't necessarily have to know what God's reason is to recognize that he could possibly have such a reason. And if he can possibly have such a reason, then this refutes the suggestion that God's character and a world in which so many go to hell are incompatible.
It can help, of course, to speculate as to what God's reasons might possibly be for actualizing such a world. But I see no reason, logically, why we should need to know which of them is God's actual reason, or why any of our speculations have to be God's actual reason, or that we have to have a detailed, fully fleshed-out reason. A general sketch or two of how the problem can be approached is more than adequate.
I think the most promising way forward is just to suppose that a world in which most people go to hell but some go to heaven is worth making because the good outweighs the bad. There is no question here of God's fairness, since everyone has sinned and is deserving of hell. No one gets worse than they deserve, and God cannot be accused of ruling unjustly in the world that exists and sending many to hell. The question, then, is simply one of God's desires and preferences (which are based in his loving character). I.e. why would a loving God desire to create a world in which so many people go to hell, causing him great sadness? Perhaps because the delight of those that get to go to heaven outweighs that sadness. Even though more people might go to hell then go to heaven, we don't have to accept the utilitarian notion that it all comes down to quantitative considerations. For the goodness and desirability for God of a few enjoying him eternally in heaven may be sufficient to outweigh his displeasure and heartbreak at those who go to hell. We can also suppose, in conjunction with this, that there was no better world in which fewer would go to hell and more would go to heaven--this was left up to people's choice, and God "worked with what he had" so to speak.
But the point to keep in mind, again, is that the above scenario (or any substitute scenario one might think of) doesn't actually have to be true to refute the atheist's argument. In fact, it doesn't even have to probable. It only has to be possible to refute the suggestion that God would definitely not actualize a world in which so many people go to hell, vs. so few in heaven.
Sean Quigley said:
I see, I guess if you have the time, could you give a more detailed answer?
That way I can give a better answer to an Atheist in case I get this question. It seems to be a popular question to ask these days.
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Permalink Reply by Lou Hamby on -
The potter has power over the clay to do as He wishes........ Omnipresent, omniscient God, can do anything.
But He sent His Son in the form of man that He might experience the same sin that every man experienced, and is not at all unacquainted with the sin of man, and He paid the price and made a way by Christs vicarious death on the cross that all men my be redeemed, even a murder (Paul) so what's with the 90 percent going to hell, the argument is fallacious given Gods action in History???
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Permalink Reply by Richard K on
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What does the Bible tell us about God's Character and Nature, in relation to the Creation?
The typical expression of a loving god is a man-made idol to make us feel better about our perverted view of Agape, Justice, Mercy, and Rebellion.
It is a dangerous thing to add or subtract characteristics of the Creator based on human ideas. The arrogance that it takes to psycho-analyse God is often times nothing more than blasphemy. His ways are far above our ways and our 'good' is as filthy rags, yet from some of mankind they will glorify Him.
Remember, it is NOT about us, it has everything to do with Him. Trying to convince an athiest that God 'qualifies' in the eyes of man to be worthy is exactly the opposite of reality. :)
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Permalink Reply by Brian Guiley on -
Speaking some to the reality of Hell and why would God allow so many to go there. First, we must realize that God tarries in returning to allow as many as possible to come to him. So his desire is that as many as can will choose to surrender themselves to him. The second thing we must understand is that Hell in and of itself, is the desire of those who go there. Hell is as close to 'absence' of God as can be found, and it is where those who want nothing to do with God go.
Difficult apologetics. Hrm. I have a hard time when people insist that 'science' is objective, and refuse to acknowledge their own presuppositions. The idea that 'evidence speaks for itself' is so prevalent in our society, it is hard to bring someone out of that mindset so that a profitable discussion can ensue.
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Permalink Reply by Leonie Margaret Edge on
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Another thought might be that if we actually did what the Christ said to do, ie 'Go out and preach to the Nations', we prob. would not have many people going to Hell at all. We make the choice, every time we do not reach out to our neighbours, our friends, whomever, to tell the Good News. We must all be evangelists and we must all, through Christ's Help, be good Christians, following absolutely the strictures of how we should live our lives, both personally and professionally, sacrificing time, effort and earnings to this end. How the World would change for the Christ!
Dominus tecum
Leonie
Justin Mooney said:Short answer (I don't have much time at the moment): First, we don't actually know that at least 90% of people end up in Hell. But even if that is the case, it is possible that the perceived deficiencies of this world are ultimately outweighed by morally good states of affairs in the total world. No one who goes to hell is being treated unfairly (everyone deserves hell), so the only question that remains is why God would desire such a world when presumably (given his love for humanity) it saddens him to see so many in hell. The answer, then depends on God's desires and preferences. Perhaps there are overriding goods that make this world desirable overall.
Sean Quigley said:Another problem to Christianity that I have read Atheists use is this one "why would god create a universe in which he knew in advance, that at least 90% of the people in it would burn in hell for all eternity?"
I got that one from here http://imgur.com/6XMl3
How would you guys to what this guy says?
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Permalink Reply by Leonie Margaret Edge on
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I agree, Richard. I often draw the parallel that I know as much about the Creator God as worm does about the gardener, and does not know why the worm is exposed to the light on its way to another patch of soil that may be richer or poorer.
How blasphemous is it to second-guess God?
Again, with the potter and the clay example, the potter shapes the clay as he wills and the pot (if it were cognisant) can only be a pot, but, hopefully, the best pot of its type that it can be.
The pot cannot say, "The potter is an idiot or does not exist. The potter is a figment of a deluded imagination or necessary for those who are of a weak will. I create my own reality."
The trouble with people who 'create their own reality' is that their reality differs depending on their egoes and their made-up morality.
As I said to a fellow passenger on a 'plane once, when we were debating this very topic, "If you have your own morality, that is, you answer only to yourself, you can, if you are angry enough, justify murdering people, even children." Just look at the so-called 'Honour Killings'.
Let alone the paedophiles who say that what they are doing is actually a kindness and loving children - yuck!
If you are responsible for your own morality, when is it alright to steal, when is it not? If you believe you deserve what you are stealing or if you believe your need is greater than the person or organisation that has the item you want, does that make it okay? What if you are starving and the other person refuses to give you bread but is well off themselves?
This is where being a Christian (the only religion ever where God gave His Life for His Creations) makes all the difference. We have to say, "This is what my God says...'Stealing is wrong.' I am only on this Earth for a short time. I must obey my God in ALL things."
Dominus tecum
Leonie
Richard K said:What does the Bible tell us about God's Character and Nature, in relation to the Creation?
The typical expression of a loving god is a man-made idol to make us feel better about our perverted view of Agape, Justice, Mercy, and Rebellion.
It is a dangerous thing to add or subtract characteristics of the Creator based on human ideas. The arrogance that it takes to psycho-analyse God is often times nothing more than blasphemy. His ways are far above our ways and our 'good' is as filthy rags, yet from some of mankind they will glorify Him.
Remember, it is NOT about us, it has everything to do with Him. Trying to convince an athiest that God 'qualifies' in the eyes of man to be worthy is exactly the opposite of reality. :)
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