I've been reading this book "cognitive psychology" and i found something interesting. It says here that "in 1969, Beatrice and Alan Gardner taught a version of American Sign Language to a chimpanzee named Washoe, showing that nonverbal forms of language might have pre-ceded verbal language. Sue Savage-Rumbaugh and her coworkers (1999) then taught a pygmy chimpanzee named Malatta a symbolic language called Yerkish. (The pygmy chimpanzee, or bonobo, is a species thought to be an even closer relative of humans than the common chimp.) Malatta and her son Kanzi were caught in the wild, and Kanzi accompanied his mother to class. It turned out that,even though he was not specifically trained, Kanzi learned more Yerkish than his mother did. Remarkably, Kanzi also displayed clear evidence of understanding complex human speech.While recording vocalizations made by Kanzi interact-ing with people and eating food, Jared Taglialatela and co-workers (2003, 2008) found that Kanzi made many sounds associated with their meanings, or semantic context. For ex-ample, various peeps were associated with specific foods. The research group also found that chimps use a “raspberry” or “extended grunt” sound in a specific context to attract the attention of others, including people. Imaging of blood flow in the brain associated with the use of “chimpanzeeish” indicates that the same frontal cor-tex regions that are activated when humans speak are also activated when the chimpanzees speak. These findings strongly support the idea that language has antecedents in nonhuman animals". 

What do you think about this finding?

Tags: Brain, evolution, human, languange

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Certainly is interesting, however the underlying assumption is that language evolved.  Intelligence/memory/communication/pattern recognition are not uniquely human traits, and have been exhibited in elephants, ravens, parrots, primates, dolphins, among I'm sure many others.  Teaching a chimp to talk doesn't demonstrate it is or ever will be human, only that they can 'think' and 'speak'.  The major difference between us and them is that we are made in the image of God, and they are not.

So Brian, what can you conclude about this finding in creationist point of view?

Brian Guiley said:

Certainly is interesting, however the underlying assumption is that language evolved.  Intelligence/memory/communication/pattern recognition are not uniquely human traits, and have been exhibited in elephants, ravens, parrots, primates, dolphins, among I'm sure many others.  Teaching a chimp to talk doesn't demonstrate it is or ever will be human, only that they can 'think' and 'speak'.  The major difference between us and them is that we are made in the image of God, and they are not.

I think Anthropology in fascinating, even though there is so much untruth in the "science" today. I studied it in college; in Anthropology we see what we humans know and don't know about ourselves. Just because "God made us that way" doesn't mean that discussion and experimentation is fruitless and insignificant. Of course, we see that Darwinist/Evolutionists believe that by studying animals they can learn more about humans because they don't believe that all creatures on earth were created during creation week; they believe we descended from animals and well, we are animals (in their opinion).

What is the Biblical view? Well, we know what Genesis one says, that God created us (as Brian said) in His image, as the crown of His creation; the species that He would commune with and that is able to worship Him with our language, not simply in our beauty or complexity. God relates to us in a special way; He gave us His word in readable format so we would understand more what He wants, what He has done, who He is, etc. God did not give the animals a written language. He gave them what they needed to survive. 

Behavioral scientists have gone to great lengths to prove that animals respond to most things based on instinct (how much truth there is in this theory I don't know); they even say that humans react in much the same way. We know, however, that while humans and animals share many characteristics (since we all exist in the physical world, we breath air for example and the same Designer created all of us) we are distinct and not related (as in descended or cousins) to chimps or any other apes. Humans have greater "developement" in the front part of their brain than chimps. How does this prove evolutionary ideas? God gave us this characteristic that goes along with our greater language capabilities.  

Have any of you seen the Dog Whisperer? He has some non-Christian spiritualist ideas and some evolutionary presuppositions but his methods and understanding of animals in very informative. One of his points is that animals communicate with subtle gestures, positions and movements and to understand them and communicate (command them) we have to pay attention to all these indicators. My dogs understand when I point and tell them to go. They also understand when I call them but that doesn't mean they come every time :) They also learn to whine when they want something; I even think this is particularly for manipulating humans since it gets them very little "in the wild". It is obvious that people and animals can communicate in some fashion and that is what we can expect since God told Adam to have dominion over the animals. How could we truly have dominion over them (be able to use them for power in agriculture, guards for our homes, etc.) if we could not be understood by them at all?  It is fun to think that perhaps Adam and maybe Noah could get his point across with animals and understand their "language".  

Very enlightening Mr. Posey ! so it still comes back to how we interpret the data. Thank you very much for your response.



Steven Posey said:

I think Anthropology in fascinating, even though there is so much untruth in the "science" today. I studied it in college; in Anthropology we see what we humans know and don't know about ourselves. Just because "God made us that way" doesn't mean that discussion and experimentation is fruitless and insignificant. Of course, we see that Darwinist/Evolutionists believe that by studying animals they can learn more about humans because they don't believe that all creatures on earth were created during creation week; they believe we descended from animals and well, we are animals (in their opinion).

What is the Biblical view? Well, we know what Genesis one says, that God created us (as Brian said) in His image, as the crown of His creation; the species that He would commune with and that is able to worship Him with our language, not simply in our beauty or complexity. God relates to us in a special way; He gave us His word in readable format so we would understand more what He wants, what He has done, who He is, etc. God did not give the animals a written language. He gave them what they needed to survive. 

Behavioral scientists have gone to great lengths to prove that animals respond to most things based on instinct (how much truth there is in this theory I don't know); they even say that humans react in much the same way. We know, however, that while humans and animals share many characteristics (since we all exist in the physical world, we breath air for example and the same Designer created all of us) we are distinct and not related (as in descended or cousins) to chimps or any other apes. Humans have greater "developement" in the front part of their brain than chimps. How does this prove evolutionary ideas? God gave us this characteristic that goes along with our greater language capabilities.  

Have any of you seen the Dog Whisperer? He has some non-Christian spiritualist ideas and some evolutionary presuppositions but his methods and understanding of animals in very informative. One of his points is that animals communicate with subtle gestures, positions and movements and to understand them and communicate (command them) we have to pay attention to all these indicators. My dogs understand when I point and tell them to go. They also understand when I call them but that doesn't mean they come every time :) They also learn to whine when they want something; I even think this is particularly for manipulating humans since it gets them very little "in the wild". It is obvious that people and animals can communicate in some fashion and that is what we can expect since God told Adam to have dominion over the animals. How could we truly have dominion over them (be able to use them for power in agriculture, guards for our homes, etc.) if we could not be understood by them at all?  It is fun to think that perhaps Adam and maybe Noah could get his point across with animals and understand their "language".  

The aricle concludes:  "These findings strongly support the idea that language has antecedents in nonhuman animals."

Dogs auromatically salivate when they hear a bell, and this monkey grunts(a distinct and specific way) when it wants a raspberry. Men have been doing the same thing to servant girls around the dinner table for thousands of years.

At least the servant girls wern't silly enough to imagine that "cognitive processes" are actually taking place.  :)   

We tend to make the same mistake when making robots, emotional in the movies. If it is all only 'physical' then you would  need to, first provide the hardware for 'speech'. Many animals are able to communicate within their group and sometimes outside, using speech that we, are not yet able to understand. Maybe they are already studying us and wondering if we might be evolving into them. The only thing we know  is that our knowledge is limitted and we still, are able only, to percieve the world through our own eyes.

...

All that human language is IS combinations of segregated noises.

There are no such thing as words but just the begining and end of these combinations of segregated noises.

So its fine to find animals likewise use or understand noises to represent things or thoughts.

The thing with animals os that they are dumb and not made in the image of God.

We are made in that image, mini Gods, and are so intelligent and fast in our thoughts that we quickly uses noises in combinations to express thoughts.

Just the donkey in the bible animals could talk if they were smart enough.

Yet too dumb and too unthoughtful.

The great point in all this is to remember people have the mind of God and not a mind of the natural world.

so we must use this body abilities to get out our thoughts.

We just use common tactics at a higher level..

Robert, do you think that humans "developed" language because of how smart we are or that God gave us spoken language at the beginning since Adam used language?

You wrote: "Certainly is interesting, however the underlying assumption is that language evolved."

Yes, the described facts are indeed very interesting. They should not be confused with possible interpretations.

Ludwik Kowalski

http://csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/life/intro.html 

 

There is no such thing as words u say? so what do you call the thing that wrote here?

Robert Byers said:

All that human language is IS combinations of segregated noises.

There are no such thing as words but just the begining and end of these combinations of segregated noises.

So its fine to find animals likewise use or understand noises to represent things or thoughts.

The thing with animals os that they are dumb and not made in the image of God.

We are made in that image, mini Gods, and are so intelligent and fast in our thoughts that we quickly uses noises in combinations to express thoughts.

Just the donkey in the bible animals could talk if they were smart enough.

Yet too dumb and too unthoughtful.

The great point in all this is to remember people have the mind of God and not a mind of the natural world.

so we must use this body abilities to get out our thoughts.

We just use common tactics at a higher level..



Steven Posey said:

Robert, do you think that humans "developed" language because of how smart we are or that God gave us spoken language at the beginning since Adam used language?
Because of how smart we were!
god didn't give us language anymore the physical movement.
He made the body but our talking is just our thoughts being communicated through noises we make.
We make these so quick and in agreed combinations and it seems like we are using words and language.
In fact we are just making common noises in very intelligent fast combinations.
God didn't organize this but immediately Adam and Eve had a agreed way of speaking.
God didn't give us a language.
Its just noises and at babel this was slightly twisted into many.
God confused the agreement which is so fast is difficult to hold in place.



Norman Walanda said:

There is no such thing as words u say? so what do you call the thing that wrote here?

Robert Byers said:

All that human language is IS combinations of segregated noises.

There are no such thing as words but just the begining and end of these combinations of segregated noises.

So its fine to find animals likewise use or understand noises to represent things or thoughts.

The thing with animals os that they are dumb and not made in the image of God.

We are made in that image, mini Gods, and are so intelligent and fast in our thoughts that we quickly uses noises in combinations to express thoughts.

Just the donkey in the bible animals could talk if they were smart enough.

Yet too dumb and too unthoughtful.

The great point in all this is to remember people have the mind of God and not a mind of the natural world.

so we must use this body abilities to get out our thoughts.

We just use common tactics at a higher level..

These are symbols representing sounds/noises of the English language.

Written stuff demonstrates language is just combinations of segregated noises.

The symbols capture the noises not the words/concepts.

Chinese did try that and it failed.

Wriiten script figured out long ago language is just noises in a row.

Robert, I understand what you are saying about the first humans being smarter than people today. Genesis 5 does begin by saying that God created man in His image and in verse 3 it says that Adam begat a son after his image. However, I disagree with some of your statements. I'm not sure whether you're saying that humans are or were like demi-gods or that the main difference between humans and animals is their level of intelligence. Personally, I think that animals are plenty smart for anything that they need to do but that humans can (and were meant to) comprehend something of the universe, concepts like right and wrong (sin), etc. Of course Adam and Eve did enjoy an elevated status before they rebelled but I believe that mankind is special because that is what God intended. I think that God used language and that humans used language because God gave it to them. People just inventing language on the spot seems far-fetched. After all, people really don't need such complicated language as we have for day-to-day purposes. They use it when they ponder abstract questions and the like. Couldn't Adam and Eve have just smiled at each other? It's not like they had to discuss politics or fashions.   

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