One argument that has been presented against a global flood involves the chronology of various historical cultures.  It is argued that, since the Chinese (for example) have a continuous history reaching back so many thousands of years and even before the Biblical timeframe of the flood, that the Chinese must have survived the flood.  This same logic is also applied to the Babylonians, the Egyptians, the ancient Europeans, and so forth. 

The problem with this argument is that it assumes the truth of these extra-Biblical timelines.  How do we derive the dates of these histories?  

A lot of times these ancient histories and dates come from what the people themselves said.  Nothing against any of these people, but there are reasons to doubt some of their histories.  It is well known that various ancient rulers lied about their own achievements.  If Nimrod or one of his descendants wanted to make his empire seem even more impressive, he could have written his own version of previous history.  They could have even borrowed from pre-flood history to make their legends half true.

A lot of archeological evidence is also open to interpretation.  Especially when we talk about "Ice Age hunter-gatherers", the dates are purely speculative.  One kind of stone artefact is presumed to be older than another kind because people supposedly are getting better all the time, when we know that highly advanced technology was available from the beginning and only lost over time.  Egyptian chronology may seem rigid, but several ways to shorten it to agree with Scripture have been proposed.

Now, I am not an expert on any of these groups (I can't read their languages, I have never done archaeological work there, etc.), so if anyone has better information than I have, please present it.  If anyone who adheres to this argument against the Global Flood has information to support it, please present that.  Otherwise, does anyone have any thoughts?

Tags: Flood, Global, History, Noah, archaeology, chronology, civilization, timelines

Views: 1967

Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

On another thread, one member asked about the Nephilim, who Scripture plainly says lived both before and after the flood.  Now, there is considerable disagreement among Christians, even Christians on this site.  Some believe the flood was local (or even fictional), and so the Nephilim would have had no trouble surviving.  A few people even believe (or so I've heard) that the Nephilim flew off in space-ships and thus escaped judgment.  I believe that the Nephilim before and after the flood were no more related than any other people before and after the flood.  I'll explain.

The Nephilim were first mentioned in Genesis 6.  This thread is not the place to discuss everything about the Nephilim; suffice it to say that the Scripture says "There were Nephilim (giants) in those days."  Then, God saw the wickedness of men, and decided to "destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air".  So, whoever or whatever the Nephilim were, God decided to destroy them from off the face of the earth along with all the other wicked people.  If any of them could have escaped to high ground or flew off in their space-ships, God's judgment would have been thwarted.  This did not happen, however.  "And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died."

The only other mention of Nephilim is when the spies were reporting about the promised land.  They reported that the inhabitants were Nephilim (I think the literal translation is big bullies).  Now, that could mean one of three things: 1) Nephilim really can refer to all giants, not just the offspring of the sons of God and the daughters of men, 2) a new population of Nephilim sprang up after the flood, or 3) the spies were using exaggerated terminology to discourage the people from invading.  Whichever was the case, it in no way implies that anyone besides Noah and his family survived the flood.

Lou's response to Tom:  Tom I am reposting Tim Chaffey's info on Nephilim....it is intersting and infromative:

 

Interesting discussion gentlemen. I just finished writing a 135 page thesis on the identities of the sons of God and Nephilim from Genesis 6. For a brief summary, you can check out my blog post from earlier today: http://midwestapologetics.org/blog/?p=337

To keep this post short, I will just mention a couple of things for now. First, Billington's article in JETS (posted by Jonathan) has a fatal flaw (and so does the article by Hays which Billington was responding to). They both assume that David was somewhere between 5'0" and 5'3". This is easily refuted. See my article at Answers in Genesis on this subject:http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2011/02/01/little-guys-big...

Also, the most likely reason the Septuagint (LXX) translated Nephilim as gigantes is because that is what the word probably means. In all likelihood, it is not derived from the Hebrew verb "to fall" but was originally an Aramaic word meaning giants. It is what is known as a plurale tantum (meaning it only appears in the plural form). See Dr. Michael Heiser's short and easy-to-understand explanation of this term here: http://www.michaelsheiser.com/nephilim.pdf

For the record, I believe the fallen angel view (whether they manifested and married/impregnated women or possessed men who did married/impregnated women) is the best view. I am not dogmatic on this, but the other two major views do not adequately explain the text of Genesis 6 and are forced to do some unwarranted hermeneutical maneuvering in exegeting this passage. Nor do the other views provide an adequate explanation for the Nephilim mentioned in Numbers 13:33.

That's all for now, but I'd be happy to continue the discussion. God bless! 

 

Where does the SCRIPTURE plainly state that the "Nephilim" lived on both sides of the Flood. I see it stated by Scripture in Genesis. But later passages show unbelieving spies declaring in unbelief that they had seen the Nephilim in the land of Promise. This would coincide with David Posey's possible meanings of Post-flood usage of nephilim. I think the spies were were wrong, since God destroyed all the Nephilim in the Flood. NO LIVING thing survived outside of the Ark, as is reiterated numerous times in the Genesis narrative and echoed in the New Testament as well.

And I agree with the Fallen Angel view, but hold to the idea that angels are now restrained from such sin, and bound in chains of darkness. That is they are restrained.

If the question is whether any people or cultures survived the Flood. The answer is no. No one survived except those on the Ark. Nothing was left of human culture by way of structures, or artifacts after the Flood. Probably the majority of the cities were subducted under the plates through CPT.

OH, and this would be a great thread to expand the idea of the rapid rise of post-flood culture and populations.

Rapid rise of post-flood civilizations is one of the things that this thread was designed to discuss.  By all means, discuss anything related to the flood and/or ancient civilizations.

Jim Brenneman said:

If the question is whether any people or cultures survived the Flood. The answer is no. No one survived except those on the Ark. Nothing was left of human culture by way of structures, or artifacts after the Flood. Probably the majority of the cities were subducted under the plates through CPT.

OH, and this would be a great thread to expand the idea of the rapid rise of post-flood culture and populations.

Just asking a question and not trying to get into hot water---but:  There are several cultures that were existent and cities during the time the flood Egyptians,and others?  As I understand it the Egyptians written language makes no mention of a world wide flood.....and existed during the time of the flood?

Well, here are four points.  One: according to both the Bible and linguistic ties between Scripture and what the Egyptians call their country, the Egyptians are descended from Mizraim, Ham's son.  There might be some disagreement, but I believe most Biblical archeologists identify Mizraim with Menes/Narmer.  Since Mizraim was born after the flood, Egypt as a country would not have existed beforehand. 

Two, I reckon the Egyptians have always spoken their own unique language.  Unique languages come from Babel.  Therefore, the Egyptian language and the Egyptians came to what became Egypt from Babel, after the flood.

Three, and most important, the Egyptians were by no means good Christian people.  If the nation existed before the flood, as wicked men, they would have been part of the reason God decided to judge the earth; if they escaped, the destruction of the flood was wasted.  If they escaped, God's word that "every man" died as I quoted in the post before last would be a lie.  If Noah and his family were not Egyptian, the Bible says that no Egyptian survived the flood.

Four, there is no Egyptian record of any kind that says that Egypt was in existence at the time of the flood (which is presumably why the Egyptians have no flood legend).  The Egyptians did not leave a continuous chronology for Egyptologists to know when Egyptian events actually occured.  Several historians have developed revised chronologies that fit perfectly with both Scripture and contemporary histories, such as the Assyrian and Hittite history.  However, Egyptian chronology is a topic deserving its own thread.

These arguments only dealt with Egyptians, but the same basic logic applies to any similar civilization. 

Lou Hamby said:

Just asking a question and not trying to get into hot water---but:  There are several cultures that were existent and cities during the time the flood Egyptians,and others?  As I understand it the Egyptians written language makes no mention of a world wide flood.....and existed during the time of the flood?

No, Egypt did not exist at the time of the Flood. Egypt arose out of the line of Ham according to the Post-flood table of nations. Monuments of Egypt are constructed of Flood produced rock. Not only did Egypt not exist prior to the Flood, it did not arise until after Babel, a good 200 years after the Flood.

And the Egyptians do in fact mention a global flood in their lore, but at the same time it is dim and distorted, as this culture always distorted their history and rewrote it to spin the image of the current leader.

Jim--just wondering, if Egypt was built 200 years after the flood as you say, when did Babel happen? Then you would have to agree that one of Noahs sons had the information and technology to build such pyramids. That would also mean cutting stone, pouring concrete, mathematics, agricultural expertise, and many other things.  Coming from an omnipotent God, how does one change religion instead of worshipping the true God in 200 years?  Since they lived long after the flood this seems odd to me?  Next it has been estimated that between 200 and 300 thousand builders over 80 years to build just the Giza Pyramid, however alluding to the new discoveries from satellite is now confirmed there are 17 more pyramids with surrounding city not counting the Sphinx and other pyramids that have been excavated, so is there enough time for Noah and his sons who dispersed in different areas to create a population in 200 years by husband and wife?? So if as Tom said Egyptians came from Babel does this in your mind allow enough time for the pyramid makers to populate that region, grow support agriculture and housing to support the dynasty after the flood. While Tom says same applies to other cultures there are other cultures from Asia and the Americas one has to wonder where these peoples came from with respect to the time frame after the flood which son of Noah had this information and how it was translated to other cultures, (but then that could have been what Babel was about as well) and the amount of peoples it takes and the technologies for these buildings, and asian pacific people. Is there a mention of any of Noahs sons as a leader in Egypt by any chance?

 

 

An excellent book to look at for Egypt (origins, pyramids, correlation with biblical events) is the "Unwrapping the Pharoahs" which is available, in its entirety (I think) to read online at the AIG website.  The introduction addresses the rise of Egypt and the progenitor of the egyptians (Mizraim).  Find it here: http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/utp/introduction-utp

 

BTW, so far as the technological level of Noah and his sons, many ziggurats are found in ancient cultures, it is theorized that they are based upon the plans for Babel, and some were more successful in building them than others.  I think this is also looked at when discussing the pyramids (a ziggurat) in the book.

Noah's sons were apparently geniuses.  They had a good deal of experience, from ark-building to Babel-building.  They had just left an ark full of thousands of animals, some of which were certainly still domesticated.  Agriculture dates back to Eden, so soon after leaving the ark an "advanced" agricultural society would have been entirely plausible, the only possible inhibitor being the low number of people to start with (which we will discuss in depth presently).  So, the technology and support system for Egyptian culture would be readily at hand by the time the Egyptians arrived from Babel.

As far as I can recall, the Bible doesn't say anywhere that "Mizraim went to Egypt".  That is probably due to the fact that everyone reading the Bible then would be able to tell that instantly.  "Egypt" is a Greek name; in Hebrew the country is called "Mizraim".  So, a Hebrew reading the account would read "The sons of Ham: Ethiopia, Egypt, Phut, and Canaan", Phut referring to Lybia (I believe).

As for the time it took to build pyramids, this is not exactly determined.  Herodotus wrote one time, but (correct me if I'm wrong, Patrick Papillons) grafftiti on an unfinished pyramid indicated that it could have taken less than ten years to build even the great pyramid.  We know that one pharaoh alone built three pyramids for himself, so it certainly did not always take 80 years to build one.

Now, the rebellion in such a short time is Biblically supported.  Babel was a case of clear rebellion, but at least one of Noah's sons was definitely alive at that time, probably Noah himself.  Shem died after Abram was born.  Canaan was apparently somewhat rebellious, and his brother "Egypt" might have been, too.

I will get to population growth shortly.

Lou Hamby said:

Jim--just wondering, if Egypt was built 200 years after the flood as you say, when did Babel happen? Then you would have to agree that one of Noahs sons had the information and technology to build such pyramids. That would also mean cutting stone, pouring concrete, mathematics, agricultural expertise, and many other things.  Coming from an omnipotent God, how does one change religion instead of worshipping the true God in 200 years?  Since they lived long after the flood this seems odd to me?  Next it has been estimated that between 200 and 300 thousand builders over 80 years to build just the Giza Pyramid, however alluding to the new discoveries from satellite is now confirmed there are 17 more pyramids with surrounding city not counting the Sphinx and other pyramids that have been excavated, so is there enough time for Noah and his sons who dispersed in different areas to create a population in 200 years by husband and wife?? So if as Tom said Egyptians came from Babel does this in your mind allow enough time for the pyramid makers to populate that region, grow support agriculture and housing to support the dynasty after the flood. While Tom says same applies to other cultures there are other cultures from Asia and the Americas one has to wonder where these peoples came from with respect to the time frame after the flood which son of Noah had this information and how it was translated to other cultures, (but then that could have been what Babel was about as well) and the amount of peoples it takes and the technologies for these buildings, and asian pacific people. Is there a mention of any of Noahs sons as a leader in Egypt by any chance?

 

 

Noah had sixteen grandsons, the first of whom (Arphaxad) was born two years after the flood.  Arphaxad had his first boy (Salah) 37 years after the flood.  We are not told how many sons were in Salah's generation; seven of the sixteen fathers apprently had 35 sons total, so seventy men is not an ambitious guess as to how many great-great-grandsons Noah had.  Besides these men, there were obviously duaghters born for the sons to marry.  Within seventy years (by which time Salah was having children) 200 people could have easily been running around.  If the population merely doubled, 800 people could have been living 200 years after the flood, and well over a thousand is by no means impossible.  That's enough to build Babel, and splitting into linguistic groups there would still be enough to found and populate cities.
Answers in BOLD within the text:

Lou Hamby said:

Jim--just wondering, if Egypt was built 200 years after the flood as you say, [I didn't say it BUILT 200 years after the Flood]

when did Babel happen? [probably during the lifetime of Peleg (100-200 years post-flood)]

Then you would have to agree that one of Noahs sons had the information and technology to build such pyramids [NO, probably ALL of his sons, and Noah too, as well as grandsons and great grandsons - but YES, for several generations Noah's descendents retained the intelligence and technological know-how].

That would also mean cutting stone, pouring concrete, mathematics, agricultural expertise, and many other things [of course - they were much smarter than the later Egyptians! According to the Bible it was never a matter of whether they might have been able to ATTAIN such abilities, but rather whether they could still carry on the great abilities of their ancestors who built the Ark.].

Coming from an omnipotent God, how does one change religion instead of worshipping the true God in 200 years? [very easily, happens all the time, and often only in a few months or years!]

Since they lived long after the flood this seems odd to me? [Why is this odd? The Bible says they were idol worshipers in Mesopotamia.]

Next it has been estimated that between 200 and 300 thousand builders over 80 years to build just the Giza Pyramid, however alluding to the new discoveries from satellite is now confirmed there are 17 more pyramids with surrounding city not counting the Sphinx and other pyramids that have been excavated, so is there enough time for Noah and his sons who dispersed in different areas to create a population in 200 years by husband and wife??[easily enough time. Had to be since this is what the Bible reveals - and not only in Egypt, but South America, Central America, the Mounds of North America, Stonehenge, the monuments of China and Sri Lanka as well. Plenty enough time. It happened.]

So if as Tom said Egyptians came from Babel does this in your mind allow enough time for the pyramid makers to populate that region, grow support agriculture and housing to support the dynasty after the flood?[Yes Again]

While Tom says same applies to other cultures there are other cultures from Asia and the Americas one has to wonder [1.] where these peoples came from with respect to the [2.] time frame after   [3] the flood  [4.]which son of Noah had this information and how it was translated to other cultures, (but then that could have been what Babel was about as well) and the amount of peoples it takes and the technologies for these buildings, and asian pacific people.

  1. The peoples of the world all came as descendents of Noah, of his three sons and their wives off the Ark.
  2. The time frame was after the Flood, after Peleg, in the centuries following about 2500 BC.
  3. The Flood destroyed every person and culture, except for Noah's family on the Ark.
  4. All the sons of Noah, as well as the wives, (who were the Ark builders and maintainers) and their descendents retained the intelligence and technological abilities for several generations.

Is there a mention of any of Noahs sons as a leader in Egypt by any chance? [Ham is mentioned - however, not by chance, but by inerrant revelation - and not as the "leader" but as the anscestor of the people of Egypt - though he very well could have been a leader, or he himself could have been a leader of ancient Babylon, like Hammu Rabbi.].

 

 

Reply to Discussion

RSS

Resources

follow us on Twitter

© 2014   Created by Creation Conversations.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service