Pre-Flood Civilizations: Did Anyone Survive?

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Permalink Reply by Jim Brenneman on October 19, 2011 at 2:42pm

Lou asked:

Jim--just wondering, if Egypt was built 200 years after the flood as you say, when did Babel happen?

How can you think I asserted that Egypt "was built" 200 years after the Flood?

it did not arise until after Babel, a good 200 years after the Flood.

That is what I said, at least 200 years after the Flood that Egypt BEGAN. It only began no less than 200 years after the Flood. But I could be wrong. It could have been a year or two after Babel, and Bab-El, and Babble could have been as early as 100 years after the Flood. Then there would have been only a few hundred individuals. But that would be sufficient to START Egypt, but not enough to build the larger pyramids.

In the land of Shinar all men had congregated and coagulated in sheer defiance of the divine command to disperse. After the confusion of tongues at Babel, the family of Ham, individuals from his family moved from there to the land along the Nile and settled. The resumed the defiant monument building and rebelliously denied their own history, creating their own cultural lore. It may have been 50 to 100 years after Babel before we could say that Egypt was "built."

when did Babel happen?

The Flood was around 2350 BC, Babel about 100 years later (or a bit more, perhaps up to 200 years later), Egypt had to be after Babel. The Bible does not give the exact "date" for the confusion of tongues at Babel, but we have hints and clues that it took place at some point in the lifetime of Peleg, for "in his days was the earth divided."

Also Babel appears to have taken place when there was a population of several thousands following the Flood, so it did not take place 5 or 10 years after the Flood. In the range of 150 years after the Flood (splitting the difference between 100-200), the human population would have ranged easily into the thousands. And this time-frame of about 150 years after the Flood falls within the lifetime of Peleg.

This simply what the Bible indicates when taken in the straightforward and plain sense of narrative. You like to keep depreciating the simple approach to Scripture as if it is one of many possible readings of the text. I do apologize for allowing this to get to me, but I try to repress this and chalk up your use of such language to your own mindset that the Bible is UNCLEAR AND UNCERTAIN, that it is a mystery rather than a revelation of inerrant truth.

Then you raise the issue of the technology of the pyramids:

Then you would have to agree that one of Noah's sons had the information and technology to build such pyramids. That would also mean cutting stone, pouring concrete, mathematics, agricultural expertise, and many other things.

Of course we would agree that one of Noah's sons did indeed have the intelligence and technology and engineering skill to build the pyramids? Why would we think otherwise? They built the Ark. All the accompanying engineering was within their ability to lade the Ark with animals, food, and supplies, and also to protect it from the violence that filled the earth during its construction. Noah was an engineer specializing in labor-saving devices and techniques (Gen. 5:29). I am at a loss to understand how it is a problem for Noah and his sons to possess the technological ability to construct the pyramids. Apparently their descendents did not loose these skill until several hundred years AFTER the building of Cheops at Giza.

Then on the matter of the paganism of the ancestors of Abraham (and even Abram himself) on the other side of the River, you asked:

how does one change religion instead of worshipping the true God in 200 years?

Why is that a problem? Where do you get these supposed "objections?" Why does this seem odd to you? That "changing religion" seems "odd" to you is nothing short of incredible to me. What religous world do you live in? But this is valid question under the topic of the rise of post-flood culture and cultures, so I will address "change."

• A local church can "change religion" in a mere year of two.
• The churches that Paul established in the region of Galatia changed in a few months (Paul's language: "So SOON").
• How does one NOT change religion in a year or two, let alone your assumed 200 years?
• Israel went through the Red Sea on DRY GROUND and then changed their religion from Monotheism back to Egyptian paganism in less than 40 days, and Aaron, the brother of Moses, was among those who changed!
• The Bible shows that the immediate descendents of Noah, even possibly his own sons, as well as Abraham, were pagans and worshiped idols and the stars of heaven (Josh. 24:2-3; 14-15 - Here the word in KJV "flood" is nahar and not mabbul).
• In my own short lifetime I have seen hundreds of people depart from the Christian Faith.
• In the few hundred years since the rise of the Darwinian tower, multitudes have abandoned the plain truth of God's word and adopted some uniformitarian adaptation to concordism (making the Bible conform to Darwin).
• Noah's descendents, possibly even his sons and grandsons built the defiant tower of Babel. Why should it be any problem for them to build Karnak and Cheops? These same descendents of Noah established the paganism of Egypt. It was not long after the Flood (possibly 100 to as much as 250 or more). Noah would still have been living and could have even visited Egypt.

Yet, Noah's sons didn't need to be the ones the building of the pyramids. But I still wonder why that would be a problem? It was certainly the descendents of Noah, since the Bible declares that these were the only people living on the Earth after the Flood. So, indeed, it was Noah's sons - in the sense of his descendents, his grandsons or great grandsons, or great great grandsons - who were the builders both of Babel and Egypt.

Furthermore, we have no definite knowledge of the religion of the founders of Egypt (they could have been true Yahweh worshipers), but as for departing from the faith in only a few hundred years? This is certainly no problem.

It seems to be a problem to you with respect to accepting the inerrant revelation of biblical chronology:

how does one change religion . . . in 200 years?

And:

"so is there enough time?"

Then:

"create a population in 200 years by husband and wife?"

And also:

"does this, in your mind, allow enough time. . . ?"

And again:

"where these peoples came from with respect to the time frame after the flood?"

You are asking questions again that seem to indicate that you think your questions are some sort of challenge to the truth of the Scripture. Do you accept 6000 years or not? I thought we had established that you do.

Again, Do you or do you not accept the 6000 years revealed by biblical chronology or not?

If you want to inject some number into the revelation to help it line up with unbelieving interpretations of archaeology and anthropology, feel free. However it is unnecessary. The Bible is not in need of any propping up with the addition of a few more years. The darwinists have already attempted this by adding a few billion years to earth history prior to Adam. Of course you reject that, but what is the harm in adding a few hundred, or a mere thousand or two to human history - just a few before the Flood and a few after. IT IS NOT NECESSARY. Let the Bible stand as it is revealed and stated in the inspired writings of Genesis.

Then you keep talking about an "omnipotent God." On what basis do you have this view that God is omnipotent? Where do you get that? Your view that God is omnipotent somehow makes you think that humans could not change religion instead of worshiping the true God within 200 years? I would like to learn more about you view that God is omnipotent.

In spite of all your (apparent) objections, here is the truth: All people on the earth after the Flood descended from Noah's three sons. This includes the pyramid builders two or three hundred years after the Flood. There was no Egyptian culture that predated some mere local Mesopotamian Flood who had lived prior to the time of Noah. Only Noah and those with him survived the Global devastation of the Flood.

All the tower building cultures, all the monument builders, whether in the Andes, China, Sri Lanka, the Pacific Islands, the British Isles, Central America, throughout North America - all of these began 1.) After the Flood, 2.) After Babel, and 3.) arose in stature AFTER about 2500 BC. Reject all alternative chronologies and accept the inerrant record of Scripture.

It is not a matter of what Jim says:

as you say. . . 

Or what Tom says:

So if as Tom said. . .

Or what my mind allows:

does this in your mind allow

Or discoveries of astro-observatories:

new discoveries from satellites

You have the mindset that the Flood was Local, and that these cultures MUST HAVE EXISTED ALREADY AND SIMULTANEOUS to that of Noah. You need to correct this error in your thinking. You need to settle this biblical truth first: the Flood, according to the Bible was GLOBAL and destroyed all flesh that moved upon the earth under the whole heaven.

Otherwise you will continue to come up with answers that are contrary to what Jesus revealed in the inerrant Scriptures. Accept what Jesus said about earthly things, just as you confidently accept what He says about spiritual things and the way to heaven. You believe in Jesus for your salvation, but for some reason what he says about the earth and the Flood you take as one of many possible view which you can either hold to or pass off.

As if:

Yes Jesus, you are serving a wonderful buffet here: Salvation by faith in Your Blood and Cross, A Literal second coming when you will destroy the whole earth by fire. Serve me, put that on my plate, but that notion of a global flood when you destroyed the earth by water, I think I'll pass on that. What's for desert?

And yes, the Bible is clear that the cultures and families of Egypt arose from Noah's descendents through Ham. Put Ham on my plate, and put 6000 years there as well, and the global flood.

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Permalink Reply by Lou Hamby on October 19, 2011 at 3:19pm

Jim thanks for your review of this...JIm I may have a question or two later but I appreciate you following me along.  Cheers!

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Permalink Reply by Jim Brenneman on October 19, 2011 at 8:12pm

Lou, I do hope you will clarify and respond to MY questions.

Clarify why changing religions is odd.

Clarify how you obtain your view that God is omnipotent and what this means. WHERE do you get the idea that God is omnipotent? What scientist discovered this? Was it measured by an electron microscope or captured by the Hubble? Who told you that God is omnipotent? How did you attain this view of "God?"

What do you think of the age of the earth and how do YOU arrive at your view? You have said that you believe in "about 6000 years, or a little more." Why? Where did you get the view that the earth is that age? Is it stamped on the bottom (Made in the USA 4000 BC)? What numbers do you add up to decide on the age of the earth? Do you get it from the Records of Egypt, or from the Chinese dynasties? Or from the Mayan Calander? What is the source of your view of the time of earth's beginning?

And could you please give by a nice list, five evidences from the Inspired inerrant revelation of Scripture to prove that the Flood was local and not global as plainly asserted by the Genesis narrative, and by Jesus, and by Peter? Why should we accept your view that Jesus and Peter were wrong about the Flood?

You have great questions, but I do wish you could answer one or two of my questions.

THANKS and as you say, Cheers brother.

Lou Hamby said:

Jim thanks for your review of this...JIm I may have a question or two later but I appreciate you following me along.  Cheers!

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Permalink Reply by Robert Byers on October 20, 2011 at 3:56am

The info and dates on different peoples is useless. one can not check anything.

Therefore there is no reason to see any peoples with a history before the babel event.

 

By the way.

How does one submitt a thread??

I wanbt to and can't figure it out or get a reply by anyone.

Please show me the way!

Thank you.

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Permalink Reply by David Thomas Posey on October 20, 2011 at 9:51am

I believe there are two ways: 1) go to your page on here, and scroll down to the box that says it's your discussions.  At the bottom of this box it has a "plus" symbol and says add a discussion or something like that.  If you click here, it should let you start a new thread.  2) go to the forum.  if I remember correctly, there is a button that says "Add".  Just click there.

Robert Byers said:

The info and dates on different peoples is useless. one can not check anything.

Therefore there is no reason to see any peoples with a history before the babel event.

 

By the way.

How does one submitt a thread??

I wanbt to and can't figure it out or get a reply by anyone.

Please show me the way!

Thank you.

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Permalink Reply by Colin Newton on October 25, 2011 at 4:39pm

A new attempt to reconcile Egyptian history and Biblical chronology can be found in the current edition of AiG's online research journal, at http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/arj/v4/n1/egyptian-chronol...  I doubt it's the complete answer yet but we are getting there.

I don't think anyone has mentioned that the pyramids were not built until the third and subsequent Egyptian dynasties.  This may have been because the population needed a few generations to reach a sufficient level to supply the workforce.

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Permalink Reply by Lou Hamby on October 25, 2011 at 6:06pm

Lou's response to Jim:  Jim I purposely sent you this behind the forum, it was more to let you know where I am at and not to get into another discussion because some of this we have discussed, so it doesn't seem we need to go over it, but I will send you some scriptures that make me think this, and other information, but I would prefer to keep this off the forum, as I don't want to cause any issues with anyone further, but my respect for your passion for you views and some the excellent stuff I have received has one me over in several areas, but there are  other things I am open to an explanation but am not getting anything that convinces me of taking a different view.  Cheers!  JIm--I am very busy at the moment and was not able to repsond back, but hopefully I will send you something tomorrow.....

Jim Brenneman said:

Lou, I do hope you will clarify and respond to MY questions.

Clarify why changing religions is odd.

Clarify how you obtain your view that God is omnipotent and what this means. WHERE do you get the idea that God is omnipotent? What scientist discovered this? Was it measured by an electron microscope or captured by the Hubble? Who told you that God is omnipotent? How did you attain this view of "God?"

What do you think of the age of the earth and how do YOU arrive at your view? You have said that you believe in "about 6000 years, or a little more." Why? Where did you get the view that the earth is that age? Is it stamped on the bottom (Made in the USA 4000 BC)? What numbers do you add up to decide on the age of the earth? Do you get it from the Records of Egypt, or from the Chinese dynasties? Or from the Mayan Calander? What is the source of your view of the time of earth's beginning?

And could you please give by a nice list, five evidences from the Inspired inerrant revelation of Scripture to prove that the Flood was local and not global as plainly asserted by the Genesis narrative, and by Jesus, and by Peter? Why should we accept your view that Jesus and Peter were wrong about the Flood?

You have great questions, but I do wish you could answer one or two of my questions.

THANKS and as you say, Cheers brother.

Lou Hamby said:

Jim thanks for your review of this...JIm I may have a question or two later but I appreciate you following me along.  Cheers!

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Permalink Reply by Alan Schriver on October 25, 2011 at 7:25pm

I want to throw a few things out there, to give us a perhaps more accurate view of what a "person" was back in the days of the flood and before, as opposed to today.

The earth was likely created with a canopy of water completely surrounding it (the "firmament" of Day 2.)  According to Dr. Carl Baugh and others, this would have meant a greater concentration of oxygen in our atmosphere.  Dr. Baugh owns a hyperbaric chamber and has done numerous experiments showing how all types of life thrive in an oxygen-rich environment.  Adam, the prototype of man, was most likely superior in every way to modern man.  He catalogued and named every animal God brought to him.  I know there may not have been as many different species back then as there are now, but there were still probably a lot.  Genesis does not say anything about God having to teach Adam to communicate, so he either learned it instantly or was created already possessing that ability.  Either way, we're talking remarkable intelligence.  He may have even used 100% of his brain (the average modern human uses only about 3% of his total brain.)  It has been theorized also that man may have been taller in those days, maybe as tall as 10 or 11 feet.  Men and animals would have thrived amazingly in such an oxygen-saturated atmosphere.

When Adam and Eve sinned, their immortality and closeness to God were instantly cut off, but everything else died off gradually.  Eve would have remained a very strong, healthy woman, able to give birth to many children in her lifetime.  We know that until the flood, the average man's life expectancy was around 900 years.  This figure reduced gradually after the flood.  When "the windows of heaven were opened," all the water in the firmament poured out onto the earth.  No more oxygen-rich environment.  This affected the dinosaurs as well, though I won't get into that right now.

 

Having been only a relative few generations removed from Adam, it is not hard to consider the notion that the builders of Babel, and therefore the later wonders of Egypt, Babylon, etc. were simply a hardier stock of human being than what we have now.  Not even mentioning that these people didn't have cars, air conditioning, fast food, or anything else that has been known to "soften us up" over the years.  The men could build more things faster, and the women could excel at childbirth.

 

Hope this gives you some food for thought.

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Permalink Reply by David Thomas Posey on October 25, 2011 at 9:40pm

I agree with you that that the Egyptian population was probably building up during those mastaba-building dynasties.

Colin Newton said:

A new attempt to reconcile Egyptian history and Biblical chronology can be found in the current edition of AiG's online research journal, at http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/arj/v4/n1/egyptian-chronol...  I doubt it's the complete answer yet but we are getting there.

I don't think anyone has mentioned that the pyramids were not built until the third and subsequent Egyptian dynasties.  This may have been because the population needed a few generations to reach a sufficient level to supply the workforce.

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Permalink Reply by Jim Brenneman on October 25, 2011 at 11:06pm

For some people the examination of the rise of human civilization seems to be about finding reasons to set aside the straightforward reading of Genesis as an account of the ENTIRE REPOPULATING of the earth.

So, they wonder, "how could the vast civilization of Egypt with structures requiring a work-force in the hundreds of thousands - how could such an advanced and numerous culture arise from one of the sons of Noah in only 200 years? Hmmmh?"

THUS, ergo, the Flood was not global and the Egyptians were already present prior to the local flood of Mesopotamia recorded in the highly flexible "account" lore of Genesis, which can be molded to fit whatever Anthropologist inform us to be the facts of human culture.

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