ISV

Genesis 1
When the earth was as yet unformed and desolate, with the surface of the ocean depths shrouded in darkness, and while the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters, 

ASV

Psalms 104

5Who laid the foundations of the earth, That it should not be moved for ever.

6Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a vesture; The waters stood above the mountains.

7At thy rebuke they fled; At the voice of thy thunder they hasted away

8(The mountains rose, the valleys sank down) Unto the place which thou hadst founded for them.

9Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; That they turn not again to cover the earth.

My question for discussion is here we have two passages from scirptures, the context of which is about the formation of the earth in the beginning.

My question is this:
What was the construction of the land underneath the waters?  If indeed as the scirptures imply; the mountains were covered and the earth was formed by GODs mighty works the land shown forth thru the waters if I understand this clearly.  

So what was this earth it speaks about.  

What land was this land (geologically speaking)?  Was it land with strata underneath its top soil?  Was it just sedimentary with no strata or was it something else.  What's your take on God's creative acts with respect to the formation of land "in the beginning".  There is much discussion about Flood strata, but what of strata within the context of God's mighty works in forming continents, land, with mountains and valleys, and river runs, and oceans.  

Your thoughts?

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Mountains were formed when God caused the dry land to appear up from beneath the waters.

Mountains were not covered by the waters in the Creation. On the contrary, the narrative states specifically that DRY LAND BEGAN to appear on day three. Mountains were not covered in the creation event, rather they were formed AFTER DAY ONE, AFTER DAY TWO, and in fact ON DAY THREE. They did not already exist, so they could NOT BE COVERED (active verb) with water.

This is the reason why verse 6-8 of Psalm 104 CANNOT refer to Creation. We believe that the Account of Genesis 1 is an actual historical narrative of events as they took place, sequentially, day by day.

SO AGAIN, until we are willing to lay aside our incorrect presuppositions we will never get answers to our "simple questions."

YOU set the terms of the discussion that we must accept your incorrect view that the context of ALL of Psalm 104 is "about the formation of the earth at the beginning" . . .  SO Since we are unwilling to accept your false view, then we will never be able to answer your question since it is requiring us to accept your incorrect notions.

I am amazed Jim given the scriptures through out the old testament about the "land",  that you can infer there were no mountains or hills or that the land was dead flat under the waters?  That is amazing?  Also the land certainly came out of the waters and dried after being covered by the waters. The only presupposition here Jim, is you wrongly have called and interpreted the Psalms as not creation but flood?  That is basically unacceptable by most scholars and experts as well as those that put our bibles together brother. And you haven an unction on interpretation beyond them? Let the bible speak.....experts interpret the bible by what they see, you have "painted a presuppositional scenario" that didn't exist and the bible itself does not back up.

5 He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. 
6 You covered it with the watery depths as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains
7 But at your rebuke the waters fled, at the sound of your thunder they took to flight; 
8 they flowed over the mountains, they went down into the valleys, to the place you assigned for them
9 You set a boundary they cannot cross; never again will they cover the earth.

Again you incorrectly insist that this passage about waters covering the mountains applies to creation. BUT VERSE TWO of Genesis One is about waters covering the earth BEFORE THE MOUNTAINS were formed. Its very clear in the narrative. And the fact is the interpreters say that it is a song about Creation, and not necessarily a song about the week of Creation. I believe it is about the Creation too!

But it is about the CREATION AS IT NOW EXISTS, having been through judgments and the Flood, and now under God's providential care - that too is clear.

Also, all the verses about the "LAND" apply to the land that was formed on day three. LAND DID NOT BEGIN TO BE until Day Three. 

The Psalmist seems to me to be refereeing to the creation and what happened at the flood. More of a panoramic overview than one single event. Great highlights of God's power and authority.

The Creation:

Gen 1:9  And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Gen 1:10  And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

The Flood:

Gen 7:19  And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
Gen 7:20  Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
Gen 7:24  And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

Gen 8:21  And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Gen 8:22  While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

Gen 9:11  And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

Gen 9:15  And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

The Psalmist

Psa 104:1  Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.
Psa 104:2  Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
Psa 104:3  Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
Psa 104:4  Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Psa 104:5  Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
Psa 104:6  Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
Psa 104:7  At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.
Psa 104:8  They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them.
Psa 104:9  Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.

Rather than make these verses a single event, they give more light upon the subject creating real life dynamics. A common thing with claims of biblical contradictions.

Very cogent and intelligent observations Robert. However our friendly opponent does not allow us to make observations from the text. Rather he insists that we have NO VIEW, and that we must yield to the scholars and interpreters that he recognizes. AND we must also admit to his false claim that the teaching of mainstream creationists is a regurgitation of erroneous doctrines a particular Christians of the Adventist persuasion. He insists that we cannot simply read the Scripture and understand what it means for ourselves.

And the opponent will continue to insist that HIS mixed up view is that of the "majority" of Christian expositors, when in fact there are virtually none that would maintain his misguided understanding that the Psalm is entirely about the work of the Creation week. Beside that he labors under the delusion that the opinion of the majority has any relevance to determining the meaning of anything in Holy Writ.

Dear Jim:

"He insists that we cannot simply read the Scripture and understand what it means for ourselves."

It would be great if "you" would understand that that within the context of this exchange. that yu would respect the fact that I can read sciurpture and figure it out myself as millions of Christians do and have?  If you reject scholarship, that is your issue not mine.  If you approach sciurpture and interprets scripture certainly your welcome to your view. As I said I am not here to get this to the level of argument, again no response from you about some of the issues I have posted. THe fact you want to disenfranchise my view of psalms that I don't understand becasue I know that you know better.  If in deed 22 bibles on the shelves of the bookstore ahve creation psalm as the heading for Psalms 104, if in deed it speaks of the beginning, one must deviate from sciurpture to come up with that view.  THis has been dealt with by many Jim, so brother as I said I respect the fact you have this view, but the evidences n nature and science and the scirptures have huge issues especially with supporting some of Morris's and Ham's inclinations that are a repackaging of adventist teaching from the early 1900's.  

Again your projection is to discredit anything I ahve said, yet you yourself have no answers to many of the issues that seem to plague me with the facts that run counter to your inferences.  But brother again Lord Bless Ya and we will agree to disagree, and I posted this becasue the elephant in the room is indeed some of the issues with flood geology, fossils, and dispersion.  



Donald Smith said:

The Psalmist seems to me to be refereeing to the creation and what happened at the flood. More of a panoramic overview than one single event. Great highlights of God's power and authority.

The Creation:

Gen 1:9  And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Gen 1:10  And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

The Flood:

Gen 7:19  And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
Gen 7:20  Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
Gen 7:24  And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

Gen 8:21  And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Gen 8:22  While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

Gen 9:11  And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

Gen 9:15  And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

The Psalmist

Psa 104:1  Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.
Psa 104:2  Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
Psa 104:3  Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
Psa 104:4  Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Psa 104:5  Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
Psa 104:6  Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
Psa 104:7  At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.
Psa 104:8  They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them.
Psa 104:9  Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.

Rather than make these verses a single event, they give more light upon the subject creating real life dynamics. A common thing with claims of biblical contradictions.

Lou's response:
Donald again I agree with the light shedding on events and make them clearer? In this case the flow of the scirptures are indeed one on top of another with respect to the "creation event".  THe psalmist extols the virtues and observable evidences in nature of GODs mighty works in the beginning.  Juxtaposing the Genesis narrative with this, is amazingly revealing that the flood and Psalms are two different events. 

Same old same old. Accusing creationists of repackaging Adventist teaching.

Well Jim if the shoe fits then what am I supposed to say, have you read Morris's Book from 1961 on the flood.  Have you also read MEcReady Price's published accounts of the flood? Have you also read that after something like 10 years after Morris's book was published he finally gave Price the credit he was due, and in fact he was not mentioned originally.  It was indeed a repackage.  Now you can say thats hooey, but the proofs in the pudding if you need more verification, I can send you the documentation for you to make comparisons and by the way don't put this in the context of an innuendo...this absolute fact and Morris himself responded to this publicly.  

I could care about this...my issue is flood geology explainable by current evidences.  You have not answered some of the things I asked because you can't, because there isn't a way for flood geology to produce these kind of evidences.



Lou Hamby said:

Well Jim if the shoe fits then what am I supposed to say, have you read Morris's Book from 1961 on the flood.  Have you also read MEcReady Price's published accounts of the flood? Have you also read that after something like 10 years after Morris's book was published he finally gave Price the credit he was due, and in fact he was not mentioned originally.  It was indeed a repackage.  Now you can say thats hooey, but the proofs in the pudding if you need more verification, I can send you the documentation for you to make comparisons and by the way don't put this in the context of an innuendo...this absolute fact and Morris himself responded to this publicly.

What I have read is the Bible. And the Bible is very clear that the Flood was global.

What I have considered is the revelation of God in the natural world. And this revelation is also very clear that the Flood was global.

It is also quite clear that the Opponent of Creation Conversations again refuses to give any explanation for the hundreds of feet of fossil-filled strata that are found all over the planet, Filled with TRILLIONS of fossils. The Opponent still dodges the global evidence of the flood by claiming that it does not fulfill HIS IDEAS of what a flood should produce. Yet he still is unable to present any alternative to explain the evidence. There is NO WAY THAT THE Geology of the earth could have been produced by anything other than a global flood of the proportions described in the Bible.

I could care about this...my issue is flood geology explainable by current evidences.  You have not answered some of the things I asked because you can't, because there isn't a way for flood geology to produce these kind of evidences.

AND OH, how very correct is this opponent of Creation Conversations. He is exactly right, THERE IS NO WAY that the geology of the earth can be explained by HIS WIMPY non-flood. The Flood that he denies is the only way to produce the strata that are filled with trillions of fossils. This relentless opponent of the biblical truth that we affirm will never get answers because he is still trying to hold on to his lame and crippled view of the Flood. A wimpy local flood can not explain the HUNDREDS OF FEET OF STRATA in North America. This poster is not discussing the topic of this thread, but again, as he does every time, he has returned to his relentless trolling agenda of attacking the basic points that this wonderful site affirms in its Excellent statement of faith.

He has admitted again that he is impugning our site as having derive our position NOT FROM THE SCRIPTURE. He is stating publicly that he believes that what this site stands for is doctrinally unsound. AND rather than apologizing for this offensive attack he has the effrontery to say, "If the shoe fits. . . ."

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