Some experts have been saying for years that Tyrannosaurus Rex may have been more keen on scavaging than  attacking prey. I don't remember all the reasons for this but TR is believed to have had a great sense of sell (comparable or better than a grizzly). This would help any creature but seems especially handy for a scavenger. Of course, from the remains of Tyrannosaurids it looks like they fought a lot. Some wounds even appear to have been made from a Triceratops. It evidently had a terrific bite force and thick, bone-cruching teeth. Ken Ham (rightly) stresses that we cannot be 100% sure an animal is a meat eater by its teeth. We know that God gave man and animals plants and fruit to eat and they started eating each other after the fall. So, is TR's lifestyle, like many fossilized mysteries, never to be determined?   

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Replies to This Discussion

Lou's response to Randall:

Do you take the Lion & the Lamb literally?  Does't this scripture have a spiritual application to it, and is maybe meant for that picture????? 

Scripture says God provides the carnivores with meals?  In the garden Adam and Eve received animal coverings?  

Yes it was GOd that did that,but it was also a for shadowing of the scripture that says without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin, God had a plan to redeem men.  The law had not been given, but that which the Lord told Adam and Eve...  Death of man spiritually came through the fall of Adam and Eve.... So are we talking spiritual death or physical death????  I just am trying to point out what I know to be pretty sure about T-Rex per the orignal theme that Steve asked an opinion about, we all have given our opinions, and so I am fine with that. I am not trying to imply I am right...I just see that some of what is said here about T-Rex I don't buy based on many studies of the animal.  That's all.

 


Well Lou, I have always held the same opinion as Randell on the "lion and the lamb" (as you have said before, just because I believe it doesn't make it so). I generally go with a litteral interpretation whenever possible, although I understand that "it is the spirit that giveth life". In regards to T-Rex, I guess I was mainly curious about that creature's activities in a fallen world. You have brought to my attention that some of my ideas concerning animals in general were based on Theology (which I believe is based on the Bible) more than Biology. I'm not sure how much we can know about TR's digestive system without finding a mummyfied (or still fresh!) example. The teeth aren't conclusive enough because every study reveals something a little different. By-the-way, I saw one show where grooves on T-Rex teeth were compared to komodo dragon teeth and the idea was put forth that perhaps T-Rex infected prey with harmful bacteria. Of course this would also have to be in a sin-cursed world. The scientific evidence is not enough for me to abandon my position on animals eating non-flesh items before Adam sinned.    
Lou Hamby said:

Lou's response to Randall:

Do you take the Lion & the Lamb literally?  Does't this scripture have a spiritual application to it, and is maybe meant for that picture????? 

Scripture says God provides the carnivores with meals?  In the garden Adam and Eve received animal coverings?  

Yes it was GOd that did that,but it was also a for shadowing of the scripture that says without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin, God had a plan to redeem men.  The law had not been given, but that which the Lord told Adam and Eve...  Death of man spiritually came through the fall of Adam and Eve.... So are we talking spiritual death or physical death????  I just am trying to point out what I know to be pretty sure about T-Rex per the orignal theme that Steve asked an opinion about, we all have given our opinions, and so I am fine with that. I am not trying to imply I am right...I just see that some of what is said here about T-Rex I don't buy based on many studies of the animal.  That's all.

 

Lou's response to Steve:

Steve I just don't think we all have all the facts period.  I pointed out some inconsistancies from my point of view with respect to T-Rex, Just because I say it...doesn't make it true, but I have questions???  On the Lion and the Lamb--I asked a question more than anwered it, I could go either way, but it does seems to have another application with respect to Scriputre in my humble opinion.

Biology is not the bible, and the bible has biology in it, but sometimes making a determination is rather difficult. It has been written in mans recorded history in Europe of dragons with a lethal saliva, so that does not seem to be out of the rhelm at all...but given the bite force, size, and relative speed of the animal, whether scavenge or attack, he was definately equipped to take care of business.....:0)

Steve said:

"Of course this would also have to be in a sin-cursed world. The scientific evidence is not enough for me to abandon my position on animals eating non-flesh items before Adam sinned."    

Lou Said:

Steve I am certainly not as sharp as some with respect to biblical exgesis...but here is also what I know---God has character, He reveals himself through out scripture, when you speak of a fallen world your talking about spiritual death or with respect to sin??

From what little evidence I have observed about dinosaurs that did live on into mans written history, it seems that these dinosaurs have been found to be carnivorous.  Alexander the great speaks of a flying lizard that had a huge wing span and was attacking his men in Egypt, they shot it down with arrows...  THis also took place in India same scenario....Since it was almighty God that created the animal kingdom, and all the eco niches, I think one plays hard to try and have every animal "according to scripture" eating plant material. I think there is something we are missing here, either the interpretation of scripture applied to man being applied to animals or something doesn't wax right.... I know if this is your view then your fine with it, and God said his creation was good from the beginning.  I don't see any reason that the animal diversity that God created originally did not practice all sort sof different food sources within the context of its eco-niche?  So the "fall of man" is definitely spiritual and there was a physical affect...  But I am still not sure about the animal kingdom in that context.

I am trying to stay on the topic of T-Rex.  So keeping with that and other theropods, IF GOD created the HEavens and the earth there is no doubt that dinosaurs were part of the original creation. Many ,many animals went extinct for various reasons.... Given a WWFlood some or many of the dinosaur species were on the ARK, as they clearly lived on into mans written history....we know from the fossil record that they ate meat given what I posted about dinosaur poo, fossil records of dinosaurs stomachs, etc.  SO like the lion and saber tooth, they were meat eaters, and that for me has to do with Gods character and intelligent design at creation....  

So I guess keeping with T-Rex here---how do you see the spiritual application of Gods redemptive plan with respect to the fall tying in with T-Rex? If he did eat plants pre-fall what was the onus spiritiually for this with respect to Gods redemptive plan for mankind? I understand Gods edict to man for the herbs of the field....  Admittedly I am still looking at this in context with scripture?  I would like to get back on this some more....Cheers!!!

Lou, I love your bulldog-like tenacity. I give my credo briefly here. I believe that when first created, all animals ate non-flesh material based on Genesis 1:30 

"And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to

every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I

have given every green herb for meat: and it was so."

I'll have to post-pone because of bad weather...   

Steve-----I hope you don't mis-interpret my "tenacity"; Since scripture seems to be an important part of the whole, then one must look at other scripture in favor of one line when there are other scriptures that "might" indicate a different view. 

I am interested in your take.  I pray that you will be out of harms way with respect to weather......

I still believe the literal account that all animals ate plants at first and were changed after sin which is where Ken Ham and Buddy Daivis and i believe most of ICr stand.when Adam sinned he started to die physically and spiritually as well. But I am a !total resurrectionist and unless something is pretty clearly a figure of speech i have no problem believing that all animals were and will be harmless in the future too!. something being spiritual just means it came from the hand of god directly not that it nessicarilly is non-material .Our God is no dimestroe version and He has and can do all things so i just have lost a lot of respect for secular scientists in general. Christ was there and He was and is God in the flesh so i can believe all that he says and let down my anchor of Romans 3:4 Let God be True but every man a liar!I have no need to spiritualize somethimg to make it fit their. world view
!
Steven Posey said:

Lou, I love your bulldog-like tenacity. I give my credo briefly here. I believe that when first created, all animals ate non-flesh material based on Genesis 1:30 

"And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to

every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I

have given every green herb for meat: and it was so."

I'll have to post-pone because of bad weather...   

Randall you can follow Ken Ham or Buddy, I try and follow the bible, there are issues with this view "for me", I am not putting that on anyone else...  Your insertion about "let every man be a liar", I hope you didn't mean that about me, because while I am seeking real amswers for truth, it is needful for me to personally look at all the issues and not just cart blonch except someones personal view....so I am glad you follow Ken and Buddy, and I am very happy you are settled in your faith and exegesis of scripture, I have not gotten that far down the road even after 35 years of being a Christian believer....

Lord bless you in your pursuits. 

...A break in the storm :) ...

To continue: I believe that when Adam sinned (rebelled) his meaningful fellowship with the Lord was seriously interrupted. I also think that from that time, things started dying, decaying, etc. This is a primary reason (besides Gen. 1:30) why I think animals were not predatory before Adam sinned. I think that before that event bacteria wasn’t harmful, mosquito didn’t suck blood, etc. Basically, that is when God’s perfect creation began to be not as good; when sin entered the world (Romans 5:12). Although we are redeemed spiritually our physical bodies still suffer from the effects of sin. So, I believe that when God said “thou shalt surely die”, He included physical death.

As far as T-Rex goes, he certainly would make a good carnivore. Man didn’t have to worry much about dinosaurs attacking them after God put the “dread of man” on the creatures (Gen 9:2). Dinos must have been particularly wary of man (compared to things like bears and lions) because of how desolate places were referred to as homes for dragons, especially in Isaiah and Jeremiah (this may be referring mainly to pterosaurs or simply lizards but the words do not exclude dinos).

Before we move on, please go back for me if you get a moment and read  RpmansChapter 5 the 9th verse through the 18th which is the summation of Pauls thoughts...  You and I agree about death spiritually and death of man, wasn't it inferred more or less that Adam was supposed to live on for ever?  So his disobedience caused a "change".  O.k. so go read that....after reading that line of scriptures there is nothing, I mean nothing in there that has to do with animals or creation per se? This is about redemption of man.  Twice you have used this scripture but I am not getting the same thing you are from Pauls line of thinking??? 

Absolutely believe dino's were around through mans history, they were created by God and many went extinct, but not all.  As mentioned agreed the Pterosaurs are definitely known, check out Alexander the Great's writings....hey and the bible!!! Cheers!

Please don't take this yourself in any way as being negative to your views... These mine and these are some of the things I question or some reasons why maybe I don't buy into some of what we have talked about.

1. Adams naming the animals, there names are carnivorous names in hebrew and actually define there killing instinct.  obviously he must have observed this or how does he call these out this way?  

2.  God kills animals to supply covering for Adam and Eve....?

3. No doubt that God gave the herb of the field for meat, but it also does not limit carnivores like snakes and others from eating meat?  I don't get the actual sense that there was a moratorium on this...

4.  Gods character and design of the animals and their eco-niches, if God put a moratorium on mosquitos or carnivores, with respect to mans salvation and redemption, and the actual pre-flood events of the bible, how does this tie in?

Why does God create a carnivore and then make them a plant eater???   

5. There are scripture that says God provides meals for animals, many are carnivores?  These are scriptures that refer back to creation????

6.  God told Adam if he didn't keep His command not to eat the fruit he would surely die?  IF Adam understood that edic, surely something had died and he knew the concept????

7.  If God did stop all animals from eating as they had been designed,can you refer me to any scripture that God said they could now eat meat?????  I don't think this edict was for the animals but man...

There are other issues as well Steve, but these are the things and reasons why I am not sure, so I am still looking at all of this in context with scripture.  So far some of the scripture used from the New Testament have nothing to do with the animals in Genesis, but these scriptures are being applied in that way....  Again this is me, and absolutely no disrespect at all on my part with your view.  I may someday be saying the same thing...but right now I am still exploring and learning.....


1. & 3. The serpent is the only creature specifically mentioned (as far as I can tell) before man’s sin and it falls into the “creeping things” that were given “the green herb”.

2. God securing a covering for our first ancestors is not the same as animals killing other animals. Adam & Eve needed clothes but symbolically they needed their sin covered, foreshadowing the Messiah’s work. Therefore blood had to be shed. Maybe this was the first whole animal to die. I would assume it brought home the heavy consequences of what Adam did. This sacrifice was killed in the place of Adam (that is the way I see it). Animal sacrifice came after sin.

4. God created the animals, as it says in Genesis, to eat “the green herb”. They became carnivores after sin and death entered the world. I had a bearded dragon. They are omnivorous. He liked flies and crickets a lot better than fruit and lettuce. Like me, he chose the meat.

5. The writers of the Psalms talk about the lions eating what they get from the Lord and sometimes being hungry. I don’t see how this has any bearing on the Garden of Eden.

6. Adam had a complete vocabulary. We don’t know what he and God discussed but they talked. Adam & Eve didn’t have to see anything die to know it was something they didn’t want to happen. When Satan talked to Eve (after she had told they would die if they ate the fruit) he didn’t say “you don’t even know what death is”, he said, “Ye shall not surely die”.

7. After the flood God told Noah he could eat meat. Animals were attacking each other before this evidently (“all flesh had corrupted itself”). However, God did not say that the animals would be afraid of man until after the flood. Maybe it is because it was not so important for animals to stay away from man.

Animal populations constantly climb and decline and shift. One thing is present everywhere: death. I use this in a general way as I think it is used in Romans 5:19, “By one man sin entered the world and death by sin”. Of course I think Paul is concerned with man, his sin and redemption, in these verses. Death is a hallmark of this present world, our condition. If God made it in the beginning where man did not die, why would He make it where the animals did? Our difference here is Theological but just because man is in another category than the rest of God’s creation doesn’t mean terms like life and death only refer to man. I don’t think Adam & Eve were in the garden for very long. If it was necessary, animals like alligators and T-Rex could have fasted until Adam sinned. They can go (I’ve heard) for months without eating. I think they ate plants. I think they would have been included in the “every beast of the field” and “every thing that creepeth upon the earth wherein there is life”. The death any creature is not indicated in the scripture prior to man’s sin.

I don’t take offense by your questioning my beliefs. I know with me I often am so influenced by knowledge of the world that now is that I sometimes am unable to see scripture for what it is. Neither of us have arrived and praise God, both of us know it.


 Lou Hamby said:

Before we move on, please go back for me if you get a moment and read  RpmansChapter 5 the 9th verse through the 18th which is the summation of Pauls thoughts...  You and I agree about death spiritually and death of man, wasn't it inferred more or less that Adam was supposed to live on for ever?  So his disobedience caused a "change".  O.k. so go read that....after reading that line of scriptures there is nothing, I mean nothing in there that has to do with animals or creation per se? This is about redemption of man.  Twice you have used this scripture but I am not getting the same thing you are from Pauls line of thinking??? 

Absolutely believe dino's were around through mans history, they were created by God and many went extinct, but not all.  As mentioned agreed the Pterosaurs are definitely known, check out Alexander the Great's writings....hey and the bible!!! Cheers!

Please don't take this yourself in any way as being negative to your views... These mine and these are some of the things I question or some reasons why maybe I don't buy into some of what we have talked about.

1. Adams naming the animals, there names are carnivorous names in hebrew and actually define there killing instinct.  obviously he must have observed this or how does he call these out this way?  

2.  God kills animals to supply covering for Adam and Eve....?

3. No doubt that God gave the herb of the field for meat, but it also does not limit carnivores like snakes and others from eating meat?  I don't get the actual sense that there was a moratorium on this...

4.  Gods character and design of the animals and their eco-niches, if God put a moratorium on mosquitos or carnivores, with respect to mans salvation and redemption, and the actual pre-flood events of the bible, how does this tie in?

Why does God create a carnivore and then make them a plant eater???   

5. There are scripture that says God provides meals for animals, many are carnivores?  These are scriptures that refer back to creation????

6.  God told Adam if he didn't keep His command not to eat the fruit he would surely die?  IF Adam understood that edic, surely something had died and he knew the concept????

7.  If God did stop all animals from eating as they had been designed,can you refer me to any scripture that God said they could now eat meat?????  I don't think this edict was for the animals but man...

There are other issues as well Steve, but these are the things and reasons why I am not sure, so I am still looking at all of this in context with scripture.  So far some of the scripture used from the New Testament have nothing to do with the animals in Genesis, but these scriptures are being applied in that way....  Again this is me, and absolutely no disrespect at all on my part with your view.  I may someday be saying the same thing...but right now I am still exploring and learning.....

Romans 5:12 more particularly, sorry.

Steve--bless you man!  LEt me send you a few things with respect to T-Rex....Cheers!!!

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