I've been doing alot of investigating on Ooparts and Antediluvian civilizations lately, and I don't really see much discussion about either one. I've found a few sites on the subject,but some are a little to out there. Answers in Genesis barely touches the subject of Ooparts, and they are of the opinion that any Pre-flood cities or buildings would have been completely destroyed by the flood. I'm not so sure. I think a civilization could be considered destroyed and still have relics and even partial buildings survive. I think AIG also underestimates how technologically advanced they could have become before the flood.

I'm sure you've all heard of ancient batteries, the ancient astronaut, The Saqqara Bird. Do you think these could be left over relics from pre-flood civs, or just early Babel era technology that was lost? Or do you believe these things to be simple mis-diagnosis?

Also, why is stone-age considered primitive? I'm a carpenter by trade. I work wood. Working with the size of stones they had and with the precision they worked them seems to me to suggest a highly sophisticated skill set. I wouldn't know where to begin to cut and lift stones the way they did without machines. I've heard people say that Machu Piccu, Easter Island, Stone Henge may have all been built by the Nephilim, or pre-flood civs. I don't know, but it makes me ponder. What do you guys think? Any theories?

  www.s8int.com has a bunch of weird stories of everything I just mentioned and more. Ancient artifacts and underwater cities, giants, and other weird stuff being found. Some of them have been proven to be fakes, but that does not discredit all of them. S8int.com just reports information they find. They do not promote or fabricate false stories. Nor do I work for them. LOL That sounded like a disclaimer!

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Ooparts (out of place artefacts) is a name given to these artefacts when they contravene the standard predetermined evolutionary view of  the earth's history. Primarily the artefacts should dictate how you view the earth's past. This is generally covered in a wide range of fields and comes under various headings i.e. living fossils, cryptozoology, Fortean, the supernatural, etc. Sometimes the subject is covered generally in the the way the artefacts are interpreted in standard(?) archaeology and science.

The term itself reinforces the evolutionary world view, given the impression that nature has played some illusionary trick on us. Are there anything that's out of place if it hasn't been manipulated by the discoverers? The burden of proof should be on those who claim that they are out of place to prove foul play, by both human, animal and nature.

Breaking down the evolutionary mind set is the real issue, as it clouds the way you look at these artefacts. Just think, many of the arguments that where used to establish the theory of evolution, are now rejected by science, history and philosophy and even by many of its currant proponents. Yet the idea survives.

You say "The term itself reinforces the evolutionary world view". I don't know that it reinforces it. That would be to say that the term out of place artifacts wouldn't exist if not for evolution. I don't know if that is true. While a lot of items only seem out of place in light of an evolutionary world view, it would still be possible for things to seem out of place without evolutions influence. If a civilization was only thought to be so advanced (for whatever reason) and then we find some item contrary to what we expected to find, given our assumptions, that item would seem out of place. The problem nowadays is that if they do find something out of place, it doesn't change their established way of thinking at all. If anything, these artifacts (not the term) cast doubt upon the Theory of Evolution. If they are real, it shows that there are major misunderstandings, gaps, and even intentional ignorance on the part of evolutionists.

You said: The burden of proof should be on those who claim that they are out of place to prove foul play, by both human, animal and nature.

Evolutionists aren't going to prove them to be out of place. They just toss them aside, or put them in the basement of a museum, never giving them another thought. I believe it is the Creationists who brings these items into the light and into the public eye.

For me. None of them really seem out of place when you consider all the possibilities in the Bible.

Donald Smith said:

Ooparts (out of place artefacts) is a name given to these artefacts when they contravene the standard predetermined evolutionary view of  the earth's history. Primarily the artefacts should dictate how you view the earth's past. This is generally covered in a wide range of fields and comes under various headings i.e. living fossils, cryptozoology, Fortean, the supernatural, etc. Sometimes the subject is covered generally in the the way the artefacts are interpreted in standard(?) archaeology and science.

The term itself reinforces the evolutionary world view, given the impression that nature has played some illusionary trick on us. Are there anything that's out of place if it hasn't been manipulated by the discoverers? The burden of proof should be on those who claim that they are out of place to prove foul play, by both human, animal and nature.

Breaking down the evolutionary mind set is the real issue, as it clouds the way you look at these artefacts. Just think, many of the arguments that where used to establish the theory of evolution, are now rejected by science, history and philosophy and even by many of its currant proponents. Yet the idea survives.

First, I would say that it would be very difficult for ooparts to survive the flood.  Even if they could, however, there is little reason to think they had to.  For the batteries, it explains how post-flood people electro-plated metal objects (a documented and not out-of-place practice).  Although the artefacts are out-of-place according to what many people believe about the cultures they are associated with, they still match the cultures stylistically.

It is frustrating that so many of these exciting artifacts are commandeered by people with crazy notions, such as extra terrestrial hypotheses.  Still, there are places to find some information about these ooparts.  The "Mysteries of the Ancient World" audio series by Doug Phillips and the Vision Forum discusses some of these topics. 

By the way, we have been discussing some of the evidence for ancient intelligence in the Christian Anthropologist group on this site.

David Posey Said:

First, I would say that it would be very difficult for ooparts to survive the flood.

I don't see what you are basing that statement on. Why would it be very difficult? Metal artifacts or huge stone artefacts would have no problem surviving the flood under certain cicumstances. Unless of course God wanted them completely destroyed. But who can say for sure. God might have intentionally wanted some things to survive the flood in order to be found later, or for whatever reason. .

David Posey Said:

Even if they could, however, there is little reason to think they had to.

I agree that alot of the supposed Ooparts I have seen can be explained within post-flood parameters. The three I listed do not seem out-of-place to me and seem to fit well within post-flood cultures. I just mentioned those 3 because they are well known. But there are many that I cannot understand within the confines of post-flood civs. These are a couple of examples that seem really out-of-place to me. (if they are real). The Antikythera Mechanism and The Map of the Creator

I just don't understand why you are so quick to say that no Antediluvian relics survived. I admit that I want to believe that there are pre-flood artefacts out there, and so I am kind of partial in my thinking, but why are you not? It would be so cool if someone actually found one!

I'll check out the Christian Anthropologist discussion.

Thank You.

Didn't the Anikythera Mechanism have some Greek writing on it?  I haven't heard of an "oopart" that didn't fit a slightly expanded post-flood culture, but that definitely doesn't mean there isn't such an artifact.  I reckon for me to say there are no pre-flood artifacts surviving is too absolute a statement.  It is impossible for us to say that nothing survived the flood. 

However, I have a hard time imagining megalithic structures such as the ones you referred to making it intact through the flood.  I have seen huge blocks of concrete moved by a few feet of water, so what water fifteen cubits upward from the highest hills could do would be impressive.  Then we have tectonic activity such as volcanoes and probably earthquakes, not to mention meteor impacts.  I suppose anything's possible, but any structure that survived all that would be something else.

I haven't heard whether the rock used in constructing the megalithic monuments you are wondering about contain any fossils; that would place them post-flood for certainty.  However, I still think Stonehenge, Easter Island, and Macchu Picchu are adequately explained by post-flood cultures.

Portable artifacts are much more likely to survive the flood.  I would imagine Noah and his family brought some things with them on the ark, possibly maps, books, tools, etc.  Maybe some of the ooparts came from them, but there is really no way of knowing.  I think I have heard that some of the Ica stones depict the continents before the flood, which would indicate that some sort of map survived.

AiG fully embraces highly technological pre-flood engineering and technological skills. Note for instance the type of Ark they envision!

Their reasoning for discounting the survival of much in the way of pre-flood artifacts to our day is based on biblical considerations. On top of that scientific factors seem to point to the idea that the sudden rise of so-called "advanced" technology all over the world points to more of a rapid re-birth rather than a gradual growth from "older" "primitive" stone technologies. All of the supposed ages were and indeed ARE contemporaneous! The technologies are not successive ages of growth or improvement in intelligence and skill. I would defy the most intelligent computer equipped engineer to come up with anything remotely close to Cheops or Machu Picchu.

The locations in which the human artifacts are discovered is an issue that dissuades us from thinking they are pre-flood. The structures and archaeological items are found on top of the numerous flood-deposited sedimentary strata. Any thought that posits the survival of pre-flood human objects is based on too tranquil a view of the Flood.

Stone henge was built by post-flood descendents of the sons of Noah, reflecting a continuation of the Babel construction which was abandoned at the confusion of the languages. The Oops are from the few centuries immediately following the flood and stand as a strong witness to the biblical record that man was created fully intelligent, and that high levels of technology were manifest in the few centuries immediately following CREATION, and persisting up to and through the flood in the sons of Noah, who had been substantial engineers in their own right.

The ooparts do not accord with naturalistic theories of human origins, but more importantly they do not align with timelines of the supposed rise of human civilization and culture.


Johnny asked, Why would it be difficult for artifacts to survive the flood, "unless of course God wanted them completely destroyed." AND THAT IS the exact reason God brought the flood, to destroy man in particular from the face of all the earth (Gen. 6:7). However, it might be excessively absolute and categorical to say that "NO ARTIFACTS SURVIVED." We would say that it should not come as a surprise to find very few artifacts from the pre-flood world. I too would find it quite exciting to see the discovery of a definitive pre-flood artifact.

In fact I have developed a sci-fi plot for a story set in 2050 in a Mars Colony mission, where artifacts are found on a icy asteroid which, in the story, had passed by the earth during the flood. In this sci-fi scenario, tectonic activity/volcanoes caused terrestrial materials to be ejected into space, to be discovered in space exploration. That would be neat.

We also should not be surprised if meteorites were to be discovered as originating as returning ejecta. But would they contain any surviving human remains or artifacts? Unlikely, but indeed possible.

That's a valid point, and I agree that Stonehenge and the Easter Island statues remaining upright through the whole thing is hard to believe, but perhaps some partial buildings would not be so difficult to believe. I agree that for the most part the flood was very violent, the rearranging of the continents, the formation of mountain ranges, I believe all happened during that time, but I think it's possible there might have been a couple of places and instances on the Earth where the flood was more tranquil.

David Thomas Posey said:

However, I have a hard time imagining megalithic structures such as the ones you referred to making it intact through the flood.  I have seen huge blocks of concrete moved by a few feet of water, so what water fifteen cubits upward from the highest hills could do would be impressive.  Then we have tectonic activity such as volcanoes and probably earthquakes, not to mention meteor impacts.  I suppose anything's possible, but any structure that survived all that would be something else.

What Biblical considerations? If you consider the World Trade Center buildings. I would consider them destroyed on 9/11, but yet parts of the building and some stuff inside still remained.


Jim Brenneman said:

AiG fully embraces highly technological pre-flood engineering and technological skills. Note for instance the type of Ark they envision!

Their reasoning for discounting the survival of much in the way of pre-flood artifacts to our day is based on biblical considerations. On top of that scientific factors seem to point to the idea that the sudden rise of so-called "advanced" technology all over the world points to more of a rapid re-birth rather than a gradual growth from "older" "primitive" stone technologies. All of the supposed ages were and indeed ARE contemporaneous! The technologies are not successive ages of growth or improvement in intelligence and skill. I would defy the most intelligent computer equipped engineer to come up with anything remotely close to Cheops or Machu Picchu.

I agree that the flood era, pre, post, and during, is a great setting and inspiration for fictional or sci-fi stories. I have a few ideas in my head for books as well, that I hope to write one day. So far all I have on paper is an plot-outline, but maybe someday. I also think it would make for a great movie with amazing visuals and a great story if it was done right, but that is highly unlikely.

Jim Brenneman said:

In fact I have developed a sci-fi plot for a story set in 2050 in a Mars Colony mission, where artifacts are found on a icy asteroid which, in the story, had passed by the earth during the flood. In this sci-fi scenario, tectonic activity/volcanoes caused terrestrial materials to be ejected into space, to be discovered in space exploration. That would be neat.

We also should not be surprised if meteorites were to be discovered as originating as returning ejecta. But would they contain any surviving human remains or artifacts? Unlikely, but indeed possible.

Wouldn't it be cool to put together a magazine type "anthology" of world of the Flood Stories! May be with a few nice illustrations for each story.

Are you talking about a collection of all the different cultures flood stories from around the world, or are you talking about contemporary fictional short stories? But yes either one would be cool. A website might be easier to put together. I always wanted to read the original stories. I've read briefly about Gilgamesh, but I guess most cultures have a flood story. I know the Native Americans have a version, and I know the Chinese do as well, but I've only heard of those stories, mostly from AIG and Kent Hovind (when I used to listen to him). I would love to see the original wording! Of course alot of them might have only been passed down verbally.

Speaking of flood stories. Do you know of any good novels that are centered around that subject? I've found a couple, but none that I liked. Or any good Christian novels you would recommend?

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