I've been doing alot of investigating on Ooparts and Antediluvian civilizations lately, and I don't really see much discussion about either one. I've found a few sites on the subject,but some are a little to out there. Answers in Genesis barely touches the subject of Ooparts, and they are of the opinion that any Pre-flood cities or buildings would have been completely destroyed by the flood. I'm not so sure. I think a civilization could be considered destroyed and still have relics and even partial buildings survive. I think AIG also underestimates how technologically advanced they could have become before the flood.

I'm sure you've all heard of ancient batteries, the ancient astronaut, The Saqqara Bird. Do you think these could be left over relics from pre-flood civs, or just early Babel era technology that was lost? Or do you believe these things to be simple mis-diagnosis?

Also, why is stone-age considered primitive? I'm a carpenter by trade. I work wood. Working with the size of stones they had and with the precision they worked them seems to me to suggest a highly sophisticated skill set. I wouldn't know where to begin to cut and lift stones the way they did without machines. I've heard people say that Machu Piccu, Easter Island, Stone Henge may have all been built by the Nephilim, or pre-flood civs. I don't know, but it makes me ponder. What do you guys think? Any theories?

  www.s8int.com has a bunch of weird stories of everything I just mentioned and more. Ancient artifacts and underwater cities, giants, and other weird stuff being found. Some of them have been proven to be fakes, but that does not discredit all of them. S8int.com just reports information they find. They do not promote or fabricate false stories. Nor do I work for them. LOL That sounded like a disclaimer!

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Y'all might like the book "Flood Legends: Global Clues to a Common Event" by Charles Martin Jr.  He discusses several legends, and includes several more legends in the appendix.

NO, although that is exactly the impression in my post. I am talking about what was under discussion in the previous post of yours:

inspiration for fictional or sci-fi stories.

I would like to see a sci-fi anthology of stories set in the world of the biblical flood (historical sci-fi).

Now we are talking about two different things here:

David Posey is talking about the world-wide legends in all the various cultures of the biblical flood, carried by the various people groups after the Babel Dispersion. Deluge Story in stone, by Byron Nelson has a chart of the elements of those many legends and lore, their cultural recollections of the Flood.

Johnny and Jim were in an aside discussing concepts for Sci-Fi that involve recreating in the story the world of the Flood:

We would say that it should not come as a surprise to find very few artifacts from the pre-flood world. I too would find it quite exciting to see the discovery of a definitive pre-flood artifact.

In fact I have developed a sci-fi plot for a story set in 2050 in a Mars Colony mission, where artifacts are found on a icy asteroid which, in the story, had passed by the earth during the flood. In this sci-fi scenario, tectonic activity/volcanoes caused terrestrial materials to be ejected into space, to be discovered in space exploration. That would be neat.

We also should not be surprised if meteorites were to be discovered as originating as returning ejecta. But would they contain any surviving human remains or artifacts? Unlikely, but indeed possible.

We have both thought of great stories that could be written in the Sci-Fi genre, that explore the world of the Flood. And by Sci-Fi I do NOT mean anything involving time travel or ALIENS. I am simply meaning fiction that views the past scientifically (like Cave Man Sci-Fi -though that junk is always based on an evolution mind-set).

We are talking about fictional stories written in the present that attempt to portray events of the times surrounding the Flood.

 

Johnny wrote:

Speaking of flood stories. Do you know of any good novels that are centered around that subject? I've found a couple, but none that I liked. Or any good Christian novels you would recommend?

I started a story about the sons of Noah growing up while the Ark was being built. I have it in my files.

This is true that its not exclusive to the evolution paradigm, but when ever I hear an argument about out of place artefacts, science or other, it is in the face of the evolution paradigm. Which is assumed as the accepted standard of history in which we measure these things. How and why are determined to be out of place artefacts? To me its like starting in defeat then trying to make up the ground. Evolutionist love it.

The burden of proof: If the artefact is genuinely fund in place and verified using the best scientific methods, then the burden of proof has to be on those who oppose it. A case of the data dictating to the theory and not the other way around.

I don't think creationist need concentrate or worry about convincing or converting evolutionist, rather they should just keep presenting the evidence against the theory of evolution. Like in a court of law, you just present the evidence for or against. We could make up our own minds.

Johnny Wirkkala said:

You say "The term itself reinforces the evolutionary world view". I don't know that it reinforces it. That would be to say that the term out of place artifacts wouldn't exist if not for evolution. I don't know if that is true. While a lot of items only seem out of place in light of an evolutionary world view, it would still be possible for things to seem out of place without evolutions influence.

You said: The burden of proof should be on those who claim that they are out of place to prove foul play, by both human, animal and nature.

Evolutionists aren't going to prove them to be out of place. They just toss them aside, or put them in the basement of a museum, never giving them another thought. I believe it is the Creationists who brings these items into the light and into the public eye.

For me. None of them really seem out of place when you consider all the possibilities in the Bible.

When we speak of an artifact being "out of place," there is no sense that is was physically misplaced, or that there is some dispute as to where it was found as far as being dug up. It is rather that they do not fit the evolutionary time-line of the gradual rise of human culture and technology. So "out of place" does not refer to where they were found in the earth, but it refers to how they just don't fit their scheme.

Donald said,

How and why are determined to be out of place artifacts? To me its like starting in defeat then trying to make up the ground.

However, for creationists, and those who hold to the Genesis record as a history of the last 6 thousand years or so, the amazingly "advanced" objects are not at all out of place. The high level of early technology is only out of place to those who think in terms of old stone age, neolithic, and a rise of human kind out of Africa hundreds of thousands, or even millions of years ago. Artifacts and civilizations reflecting inexplicable engineering feats and high levels of technology are not at all out of place for those who believe the biblical account that Noah was highly intelligent, from a technologically advanced culture.

The sudden appearance of such civilizations and technologies all over the world are post-flood rebirths of what Noah and his sons knew from their world before the Flood, as the culture was spread in the dispersion after Babel.



Jim Brenneman said:

The locations in which the human artifacts are discovered is an issue that dissuades us from thinking they are pre-flood. The structures and archaeological items are found on top of the numerous flood-deposited sedimentary strata. Any thought that posits the survival of pre-flood human objects is based on too tranquil a view of the Flood.  ...

That is the 'Limiting Factor", right there. All relics must necessarily be in or below the sedimentary strata, unless they floated in the Flood Waters.

*

Hey--Pre-flood man had technology that we still can't duplicate?  Also I have studied some other information about the earth over time, and does seem that the earth has went through meteor impacts and volcanoes that are recorded in mans history that so affected cultures they had to disperse in or order to survive in certain regions, and some but not all of the cave flint people may have been part of these dispersal's.  With respect to mans intelligence, Jim hit the nail on the head with the ARK, but if you look at the walls built in meso america and the cutting of stone that can't be duplicated today.  Also there is much inference in writing that man used magnetism/levitation to move large stones....this had been observed in the 20th century in Napal by a doctor.  Anyway I understand that Idea that the flood would have covered everything, but many cities built on mountains in many countires were exposed after the flood drained....Many of the ancient meso American culture claim that the buildings were there before they came?  So they built on top of some of it, I understand now the oldest known city in Peru on the coast is older than the Egyptian culture.  I don't think its out of the ordinary of man had these technologies and wisdom about stars and other such things.... that men built population centers before the flood, because a lot of these Oop art stuff ties in with mans wisdom being very advanced before the flood?  I don't see a schism here between the WWFlood and man building advanced tools and having knowledge of the stars etc. ahead of the flood.  

It seems the cave guys are a degeneration of mans culture, but is that right, and there are many reasons as mentioned above beyond the ice age... interestingly at 500AD the Meso Americans were still using flaked tools arrow heads, axes, and they were extremely intelligent and brilliant....so I don't follow the thinking of evoutionary inferences with resepct to mankind.

Think about this----

All over the world in the last 100 years they have found cultures that were hunter gathers (mostly) that lived on animals using arrow heads, having shells drilled with holes, beads, animal clothing, pottery lite, and other such things all the same all over the world.  When dug up, one culture has a date of 50,000 years, another 20,000 years, another 8,000 years...in all cases we can say the location of the find in the ground is not uniform through out the whole earth, we know the carbon 14 test even at the best is not good or not accurate afte 2,500 years?  So these guys guestimate a date based on the evolutionary expectations of Darwin and those right after him, that started applying old dates to cultures arbitrarily even without a dating method that was dependable, so don't believe all these dates and I find it curious the same culture styles are found through out the world and the dates are all over the place.....I am implying that some of the stone-age cultures should be rather modern post flood, and a result of a change in the earths climate (post flood), there are many writings about these catastrophes that destroyed the agrarian cultures in certain areas, so mans progress has been impeded from time to time given some of these catastrophes, and these are within mans written history in many cultures..... I have found papers written and other internet sites that have explored these and are documented. 

 



I see what you mean more clearly now. Evolution is definitely the accepted standard of history, and that's why Ooparts can be used as a means to cast doubt on the Theory of Evolution. Whether they are pre-flood or post-flood they still don't fit within the assumption that ancient man was more primitive.

When you say that "Creationist should not worry about convincing or converting evolutionists." Isn't that going against the "Take the Gospel message to every tribe and nation" command? I feel it is our duty to convert them. I've had pretty good success by bringing up Ooparts to Evolutionists and then presenting them with a paradigm that better makes sense of the evidence. I've actually had better success using the ice age and then explaining that the flood is the perfect catalyst to bring it about. I'm working on convincing my cousin right now.

Donald Smith said:

This is true that its not exclusive to the evolution paradigm, but when ever I hear an argument about out of place artefacts, science or other, it is in the face of the evolution paradigm. Which is assumed as the accepted standard of history in which we measure these things. How and why are determined to be out of place artefacts? To me its like starting in defeat then trying to make up the ground. Evolutionist love it.

The burden of proof: If the artefact is genuinely fund in place and verified using the best scientific methods, then the burden of proof has to be on those who oppose it. A case of the data dictating to the theory and not the other way around.

I don't think creationist need concentrate or worry about convincing or converting evolutionist, rather they should just keep presenting the evidence against the theory of evolution. Like in a court of law, you just present the evidence for or against. We could make up our own minds.

I don't think that "all relics must be below or in the sedimentary strata unless they floated on the flood water". I think it's quite possible that some parts (albeit, small parts) of the Earth could have had a more tranquil flood experience, where it was not covered with layers and layers of deposits, and the water just gradually engulfed it and did not have tidal waves or tectonic activity pummeling them.

Richard K said:



Jim Brenneman said:

The locations in which the human artifacts are discovered is an issue that dissuades us from thinking they are pre-flood. The structures and archaeological items are found on top of the numerous flood-deposited sedimentary strata. Any thought that posits the survival of pre-flood human objects is based on too tranquil a view of the Flood.  ...

That is the 'Limiting Factor", right there. All relics must necessarily be in or below the sedimentary strata, unless they floated in the Flood Waters.

*

If the mountain upon which an artifact appears is a sedimentary deposit filled with fossils, then that artifact is very likely POST-FLOOD. If the artifact appears on a post flood volcanic island, then that artifact is very likely Post-flood.

The likelihood of pre-flood artifacts appearing in post-flood geological strata is highly unlikely. It is possible for pre-flood artifacts to appear, swept atop flood deposits, or for layers to be inverted, exposing pre-flood material as a top layer as a result. BUT again, highly unlikely and quite rare.

It is safer and a more reasonable approach to look at Ooparts as post-flood phenomena, related to residual catastrophism in the 4 or 5 centuries immediately following the Flood. Even the Meso American cultures referenced by Lou, who report that they came to cities which were already built as they migrated could be more reasonably seen thus: They came upon cities abandoned by earlier Babel Migrants, who died out due to disease or war. Then LATER migrants following in a subsequent wave came to those empty cities and occupied them. So, the cities in Central America would have been originally built by first wave migrants from Babel, who lived in the location for several hundred years, then perished due to famine, epidemic, or conquest - leaving behind uninhabited cities for the next wave to occupy.

Even in the recent past, within the past mere 500 years we have seen one culture replace another within a few hundred years virtually across TWO ENTIRE CONTINENTS! (North and South America)

When one considers the biblical record of the flood and the geological record of the flood it seems unlikely that a few areas may have experienced any thing remotely "tranquil." The whole earth from one end to the other is composed of thousands of feet of sedimentary strata, filled with fossils and deposited through the alluvial mechanism of the Global Flood. There is nothing tranquil in this as expressed by Peter who says

The world that then was, being "cataclysmned"  with water, perished - was destroyed.

Well I don't know where each particular item has been found. I suppose there could be some instances where there are fossil rich deposits that weren't caused by the flood, but I see your point that it would be highly unlikely. Hmm.. I didn't think of that. That's a really good indicator of post-flood strata in general. Why else would it have an abundance of fossils in it? I hike up into the mountains here in Nevada quite often and I know how rare it is to find bones or complete skeletons waiting around to be fossilized.

"If the mountain upon which an artifact appears is a sedimentary deposit filled with fossils, then that artifact is very likely POST-FLOOD. If the artifact appears on a post flood volcanic island, then that artifact is very likely Post-flood."

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