Who are we? Spirit/Soul/Body
I grew up hearing the addage, "We are a spirit, we have a soul, and we live in a body." I always believed our true self was a spirit being and we had a brain which stored memories, knowledge, and evoked emotions all while living in a mechanical construct known as a body that did for us what we told it.
There is another perspective that says spirit soul and body are all part of our physical being and if one part of that dies it all dies. That indicates there is no eternal part of us outside of our body and that without our body we can not continue living.
Which is it? That is the purpose of this thread to try to sort things out and determine if there is a part of us that can exist separate from our body. Biblical comentary is welcome but so is philosophical musings. The goal is to think about the different issues and grow from the exposure.
I want to first make a basic case for the existence of a spirit that can exist separate from the body.
Who are we? If we are nothing more than a material being that relies on a material reality then we are what we see in the mirror. Is that really you? Will you have a mole on your face when you get to heaven? Are your distinctive eye brows a part that defines who you are? We look so much different from when we are babies than when we are about ready for the grave. Did we change over time? Were we a different being when we were in elementary school than when we finish graduate school? Does knowledge change who we are?
If we went to war and our body was cut in half from between the chest and belly would there be two of us or would our belly and leggs stop being a part of who we were? If you lost your face would you lose your identity? If they were able to save just your brain alive and store it in a jar and you were still conscious would you still be you? If you were to then begin dreaming would you still have your body in your dream? If you still had your body in your dream but in reality your body didn't exist except your brain would the real you still be your body or just an illusion of you?
If our material body were an illusion of you and you still existed without your body is it possible that all material aspects of who you are is just an illusion? Could it be that we are dreaming that we have a material brain whose chemical actions create out thought? Neurologists today have completely failed to explain chemically how brain chemistry accounts for consciousness and thought. They have a pretty good idea how memories are stored similar to how computers use memory but are completely clueless how consciousness is produced by only chemical reactions.
Are you your memories? Have your parents created you by how they parented? Would you be someone else if you had different parents? Are you the sum total of all the experiences you've ever had? If so would you be a different being if you had experienced a different set of experiences? If you went to sleep tonight and left your body and your memories behind and woke up in a different body would you be that other person or would you be unique from who that other person was if they spent a day in your body with your memories? If you had a complete mind wipe and totally lost all your personal memories would you be someone entirely different from who you were just before you lost your memories?
Is there a part of us that exists apart from our bodies and our memories or are we really nothing more than bodies and memories? I would argue that we do exist regardless of bodies and memories. We are a unique spirit not contingent on bodies or memories and that if we lose a part of our body or our memories we exist all the same and do not become "someone" different. We are unique spirits independent of bodies and minds. We exist regardless.
I look forward to your thoughts and scriptures.
Views: 31
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Allen Roy on -
The purpose of all the parts of the body is to keep the brain functioning. Without the breath of life, the body cannot function and the brain cannot survive. While the body can exist without some parts, eventually there comes a point where the removal of some body part causes the death of the whole thing. One may not need all one's limbs and perhaps some organs, but there is a limit.
The brain is the center of all thought. The functioning brain results in the mind which is what we are consciously. As was mentioned in the soul topic, the soul is the combination of a physical body (regardless how mutilated) which has a brain with the life force given by God. When the breath leaves, which the body needs to keep the brain alive, the brain quits and turns to dust.
The spirit is who we are as the result of a conscious, functioning brain. It is basically the equivalent of mind or person. Just as the mind cannot exist without a functioning brain, so to the spirit cannot exist without the brain.
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Permalink Reply by Robert Barnett on -
I thought the soul was basically our existance, the part of us that becomes "self-aware" as we mature as children and may grow but never truly changes even when our physical body dies. The part that Jesus died/rose again to get us into Heaven, until the perfect bodies thing comes around.
I've tended to think of the spirit as much the driving force, the fire within us. That's different from the soul, and if anything I'd call it the Holy Spirit in us. Sometimes this word has been used to help describe other things, "Cage a lion, and you can see in its eyes that it's spirit has died."
I'd probably call the physical body...the brain with accessories. The neat aspects come with you get the body and the spirit and/or soul working together.
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Permalink Reply by Alexander Martin on -
If our spirit is nothing more than the breath of God which animates us then how can we have this spirit and then be filled with the Holy Spirit and have Jesus' spirit dwell in us in any different way than all the other sinners without Christ? It seems as if we have a unique spirit distinguishable from the breath of God, the Holy Spirit, as well as Christ's spirit. There are a few scriptures that speak of the breath, or spirit, of man. How is it that we can have a spirit if it is only God's breath. If it is just us being "spirited" then perhaps when we think of the Holy Spirit or the breath of God, perhaps the Church, or maybe just I, have a deep misperception of what a spirit is. If angels are spirit beings then wouldn't they then in that light be nothing more than bundles of "motivation" if that is all "spirit" really means? I don't see how spirit beings, in the view of spirits being nothing more than spirited motivation, could exist independent of a physical body like ours. If our idea of what spirit is (I've got spirit, yes I do, I've got spirit, how about you) is misperceived then perhaps our view of spirit beings (angels) is just as much a misperception as our own spirit.
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Permalink Reply by Robert Barnett on
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"I would suggest that mankind lost a measure of God spirit when Adam sinned and that we gain that portion back after baptism."
I thought baptism wasn't required, it's a symbolic ceremony intended for public display. If we get something that was lost with the original sin back during baptism, that has other implications. It means that those that don't get baptised, don't get that back. So if they get it, there's an alternate means of doing so. Also, Jesus got baptised by John the Baptist, who was surprised that the opposite (Jesus baptizing John) wasn't to happen. Does your suggestion apply to Jesus as well there? I'm not making light of your suggestion, just seeing these questions if it's true.
Allen W. Jones said:Alexander said: "how can we have this spirit and then be filled with the Holy Spirit and have Jesus' spirit dwell in us in any different way than all the other sinners without Christ?"
I would suggest that mankind lost a measure of God spirit when Adam sinned and that we gain that portion back after baptism.
Alexander said: "maybe just I, have a deep misperception of what a spirit is."
I think you confuse the spirit of God with a spiritual messenger. Angels are created beings, so I can only assume they are chay nephesh like we are, only designed to exist in higher dimensions. The spirit of God is His knowledge, wisdom, truth, power, and glory carried on His breath which is the life and light of men.
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Permalink Reply by Alexander Martin on
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Allen (Jones), here are some scriptures for you to digest:
Psalms 104:4
Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Zechariah 6:5
And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the LORD of all the earth.
Hebrews 1:7
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Revelation 17:3
So the angel took me in spirit into the wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that had seven heads and ten horns, written all over with blasphemies against God.
The Bible calls angels spirits. It also mentions in the last scripture that we can be taken in spirit form to other places. How does that fit with your theology on spirits? A spirit is a spirit whether it is the spirit of God or another spirit. The substance is the same, otherwise they would have called it something different instead of spirit.
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Permalink Reply by Alexander Martin on
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Allen W. Jones said:
"The term spirit "ruwach" (also in aramaic) in the old testament always referred to the breath of God in various forms. The term used in the old testament for angel or messenger is "mal'ak" (also in aramaic)."
How do you justify saying ruwach in the OT always refers to the breath of God when I gave you two scriptures in Psalms 104:4 and Zechariah 6:5 where ruwach specifically refers to angels and not the breath of God?
Numbers 16:22
And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?
Numbers 27:16
Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,
These scriptures indicates that all flesh have spirits. This is not the breath of God.
Here are scriptures in the OT that indicate people have spirits:
Genesis 7:22
All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
1 Chronicles 5:26
And the God of Israel stirred up the spirit OF Pul king of Assyria, and the spirit OF Tilgathpilneser king of Assyria, and he carried them away, even the Reubenites, and the Gadites, and the half tribe of Manasseh, and brought them unto Halah, and Habor, and Hara, and to the river Gozan, unto this day.
Job 9:18
He will not suffer me to take MY breath, but filleth me with bitterness.
Job 12:10
In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath OF all mankind.
Job 17:1
MY breath is corrupt, my days are extinct, the graves are ready for me.
Job 19:17
MY breath is strange to my wife, though I intreated for the children's sake of mine own body.
Job 21:4
As for me, is my complaint to man? and if it were so, why should not MY spirit be troubled?
Job 32:8
But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
Psalms 32:2
Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
Psalms 104:29
Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away THEIR breath, they die, and return to their dust.
Psalms 146:4
HIS breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Proverbs 16:2
All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.
Proverbs 17:27
He that hath knowledge spareth his words: and a man of understanding is of an excellent spirit.
Proverbs 18:14
The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear?
Ecclesiastes 3:19
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, THEY have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Isaiah 2:22
Cease ye from MAN, WHOSE breath is in HIS nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of ?
Isaiah 33:10,11
10 Now will I rise, saith the Lord; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.
11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: YOUR breath, as fire, shall devour you.
Zechariah 12:1
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit OF man within him.
There are many more scriptures but you get the point. Humans have spirits that are theirs and not just the breath of God. So I ask you again, how do you justify saying ruwach in the OT always refers to the breath of God when it clearly refers to both angels as well as us?
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Permalink Reply by Alexander Martin on
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Hey Allen (Roy)! Let me ask you this question. When you dream you see your body. If you were to look in a mirror in your dream you would see your body in the mirror. If you were to touch your head in your dream you would see yourself touching your head in the mirror and it would really feel like you were touching your head. If you were to take a surgical tool in your dream and cut off the top of your skull you could probably take out your brain in your dream and you would still probably be looking at yourself in the mirror holding your unattached brain in your hands. If the body you're looking at in the mirror isn't really your body and if the brain you're holding in your hands isn't really your brain then how can you say the spirit can't exist without the brain? What do you base that on? Where is your brain located in your dream?
For some scriptural insight consider these scriptures:
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (for we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
How can we (the true we) be present in our bodies but absent from the Lord and be absent from our bodies and present with the Lord if we did not have a spirit that can be separated from our brains?
Allen Roy said:The purpose of all the parts of the body is to keep the brain functioning. Without the breath of life, the body cannot function and the brain cannot survive. While the body can exist without some parts, eventually there comes a point where the removal of some body part causes the death of the whole thing. One may not need all one's limbs and perhaps some organs, but there is a limit.
The brain is the center of all thought. The functioning brain results in the mind which is what we are consciously. As was mentioned in the soul topic, the soul is the combination of a physical body (regardless how mutilated) which has a brain with the life force given by God. When the breath leaves, which the body needs to keep the brain alive, the brain quits and turns to dust.
The spirit is who we are as the result of a conscious, functioning brain. It is basically the equivalent of mind or person. Just as the mind cannot exist without a functioning brain, so to the spirit cannot exist without the brain.
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Permalink Reply by Alexander Martin on
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Allen W. Jones said:
"To think you have anything apart from God is the same mistake lucifer made in thinking to be like the most high God."
Then, by your reasoning, if our spirit is the breath of God so too is our soul and body. There is nothing we are that is uniquely ours. What you are saying is that we ARE God. I suppose you're right in that we could not exist without Him holding us together. There is no reasoning you should give distinguishing our individual being from the rest of creation because as our entire being is the breath of God so too is the rest of creation. God said "Let there be" and there was. With God's breath all things came into existence and He sustains all things by His breath. All things ARE His breath. We are indistinguishable from it and it is indistinguishable from God. All is One. What an astute point you have made.
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Permalink Reply by Alexander Martin on
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Here's a question for you Allen (Jones). When it comes down to it you use the scripture mixed with your philosophical intelect and think that's just fine but when other's try to do it you criticise them. When others try to use just what the Bible clearly says you tell them they're being simplistic and rationalize your own point of view on your philosophy of the Bible. What gives? If you can't recognize that when other people do what you do it is just as legitimate how can you justify what you do? Perhaps your whole point is to try to force other people to think like you do and nothing less is acceptable. If that's not it what are you doing?
Allen W. Jones said:Alexander said: "How do you justify saying ruwach in the OT always refers to the breath of God.."
This is a very simplistic approach to the term ruwach. The spirit of God is His knowledge, wisdom, truth, power, and glory carried on His breath which is the life and light of man. It is manifest in tornadoes, storms, strong winds, and tongues of fire. It is manifest in fluttering energy on the surface of the freshly created earth and in a pillar of smoke and fire. The spirit of God invigorates us and motivates us and can be found in His tree, His river, and His Word.
How else can you express the involvement of infinite God in a limited and finite universe?
Our breathing is made possible by the initial breath of God, that spark evolutionary scientists cannot find. Our intelligence is God given, our reasons are because He gave us His reasoning. Our DNA carries information from His mind, thought, and Word.
And if that is not enough?
Consider creation week.. God created light and divided it from darkness by rotating the earth. What does the rotation from dark to light do to our planet? It generates the wind in what we call the Coriolis effect on the firmament. Aka: The breath of God on the earth in both air and wind.
There is no argument you can make for man owning any portion of God's ruwach.. It is ALL HIS as evidenced by the separation and loss of His life giving breath in what we observe as death.
To think you have anything apart from God is the same mistake lucifer made in thinking to be like the most high God.
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Permalink Reply by Robert Barnett on
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"Where is your brain located in your dream?"
I'm not sure this is a good illustration. Dreams can be used to deliver messages of God, but here you're assuming that your spirit/soul can do the out of body experience thing and look in the mirror...all in a dream. Short of astral projection, I'm not sure this is possible. And astral projection is a different subject entirely.
Alexander Martin said:Hey Allen (Roy)! Let me ask you this question. When you dream you see your body. If you were to look in a mirror in your dream you would see your body in the mirror. If you were to touch your head in your dream you would see yourself touching your head in the mirror and it would really feel like you were touching your head. If you were to take a surgical tool in your dream and cut off the top of your skull you could probably take out your brain in your dream and you would still probably be looking at yourself in the mirror holding your unattached brain in your hands. If the body you're looking at in the mirror isn't really your body and if the brain you're holding in your hands isn't really your brain then how can you say the spirit can't exist without the brain? What do you base that on? Where is your brain located in your dream?
For some scriptural insight consider these scriptures:
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (for we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
How can we (the true we) be present in our bodies but absent from the Lord and be absent from our bodies and present with the Lord if we did not have a spirit that can be separated from our brains?
Allen Roy said:The purpose of all the parts of the body is to keep the brain functioning. Without the breath of life, the body cannot function and the brain cannot survive. While the body can exist without some parts, eventually there comes a point where the removal of some body part causes the death of the whole thing. One may not need all one's limbs and perhaps some organs, but there is a limit.
The brain is the center of all thought. The functioning brain results in the mind which is what we are consciously. As was mentioned in the soul topic, the soul is the combination of a physical body (regardless how mutilated) which has a brain with the life force given by God. When the breath leaves, which the body needs to keep the brain alive, the brain quits and turns to dust.
The spirit is who we are as the result of a conscious, functioning brain. It is basically the equivalent of mind or person. Just as the mind cannot exist without a functioning brain, so to the spirit cannot exist without the brain.
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Permalink Reply by Alexander Martin on
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You can't have it both ways Allen (Jones).
Zechariah 12:1
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
If you want to say our soul and body are "totally separate" from God you have to say the same thing about our spirit which God formed within us.
Job 17:1
MY breath is corrupt, my days are extinct, the graves are ready for me.
Psalms 32:2
Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
Proverbs 16:2
All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.
Proverbs 17:27
He that hath knowledge spareth his words: and a man of understanding is of an excellent spirit.
These scriptures indicate OUR spirits can be corrupted or made excelent. How can you say that about the breath of God? Our spirit can be viewed as being nothing more than the breath of God but if you take that viewpoint you MUST also take the viewpoint that the entire creation was God breathed and it is all indistinguishable from God. There can not be separation because the creation is not self existent but relies on God to sustain and hold it together.
This all depends on your perspective. In one view we can perceive seperateness and from that view we can talk about mankind having a spirit, soul, and body. Once you bridge that viewpoint and perceive connection, all must be perceived connected to remain logically consistent. You can not perceive both in a synthesis but can only perceive both realizing their dichotomy.
You are interjecting much philosophy into your theology, which I have no problem with. I would like for you to at least admit it so we can agree on what we are talking about here. This is not pure theology taken straight from the Bible's teachings. The Bible leaves plenty of room for philosophical connections and I am happy you are making the connections but disapointed you pretend you are not partaking in it.
Given the philosophical nature of this debate, why don't you address the point I make detecting a true part of us that is neither body nor mind but spirit. Address why we can identify with that part of us if this "spirit," which we can detect as more true to ourselves than our mind, is only the breath of God.
Allen W. Jones said:Alexander said: "Then, by your reasoning, if our spirit is the breath of God so too is our soul and body. There is nothing we are that is uniquely ours. What you are saying is that we ARE God."
Not at all.. I think you are missing something.
In Genesis 1 God created the heavens and the earth. As we examined elsewhere this is the physical spaces and matter of the universe. God imbued His spirit into the universe to give it motive force and life.. God used a measure of His essence into the physical structure of the universe.
It is the same with all chay nephesh.. God added more of His spirit to all living creatures. We as humans also carry the image of God separating us from the rest of the creatures.
So we are made by God out of His essence, but we are totally separate. Like taking a glass of water out of an endless ocean God made our universe, charged it up, and breathed on us to give us life.
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Permalink Reply by Alexander Martin on
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My point is that your spirit can not be directly linked with just your brain. This is known as dualism. Consider this scripture:
Revelation 17:3
So the angel took me in spirit into the wilderness.
There are other scriptures about prophets (Isaiah I think) taken to heaven to view revelation from God. They got to see cherubims and seraphims and all sorts of other things but I believe they were taken there in spirit and not bodily.
In regards to dreams, what do you propose? Do your dreams happen in your brains? How can all the space you observe and travel through fit inside your brain? Is this space, time, and matter we observe and sense a creation of our brains? Wait... are you saying our brains are creators and we can create space, time, and matter? The point is, your spirit has no connection to your physical brain and yet is more real than your physical brain and body. We are spirits, we have souls, we live in bodies.
Robert Barnett said:"Where is your brain located in your dream?"
I'm not sure this is a good illustration. Dreams can be used to deliver messages of God, but here you're assuming that your spirit/soul can do the out of body experience thing and look in the mirror...all in a dream. Short of astral projection, I'm not sure this is possible. And astral projection is a different subject entirely.
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