Who are we? Spirit/Soul/Body
I grew up hearing the addage, "We are a spirit, we have a soul, and we live in a body." I always believed our true self was a spirit being and we had a brain which stored memories, knowledge, and evoked emotions all while living in a mechanical construct known as a body that did for us what we told it.
There is another perspective that says spirit soul and body are all part of our physical being and if one part of that dies it all dies. That indicates there is no eternal part of us outside of our body and that without our body we can not continue living.
Which is it? That is the purpose of this thread to try to sort things out and determine if there is a part of us that can exist separate from our body. Biblical comentary is welcome but so is philosophical musings. The goal is to think about the different issues and grow from the exposure.
I want to first make a basic case for the existence of a spirit that can exist separate from the body.
Who are we? If we are nothing more than a material being that relies on a material reality then we are what we see in the mirror. Is that really you? Will you have a mole on your face when you get to heaven? Are your distinctive eye brows a part that defines who you are? We look so much different from when we are babies than when we are about ready for the grave. Did we change over time? Were we a different being when we were in elementary school than when we finish graduate school? Does knowledge change who we are?
If we went to war and our body was cut in half from between the chest and belly would there be two of us or would our belly and leggs stop being a part of who we were? If you lost your face would you lose your identity? If they were able to save just your brain alive and store it in a jar and you were still conscious would you still be you? If you were to then begin dreaming would you still have your body in your dream? If you still had your body in your dream but in reality your body didn't exist except your brain would the real you still be your body or just an illusion of you?
If our material body were an illusion of you and you still existed without your body is it possible that all material aspects of who you are is just an illusion? Could it be that we are dreaming that we have a material brain whose chemical actions create out thought? Neurologists today have completely failed to explain chemically how brain chemistry accounts for consciousness and thought. They have a pretty good idea how memories are stored similar to how computers use memory but are completely clueless how consciousness is produced by only chemical reactions.
Are you your memories? Have your parents created you by how they parented? Would you be someone else if you had different parents? Are you the sum total of all the experiences you've ever had? If so would you be a different being if you had experienced a different set of experiences? If you went to sleep tonight and left your body and your memories behind and woke up in a different body would you be that other person or would you be unique from who that other person was if they spent a day in your body with your memories? If you had a complete mind wipe and totally lost all your personal memories would you be someone entirely different from who you were just before you lost your memories?
Is there a part of us that exists apart from our bodies and our memories or are we really nothing more than bodies and memories? I would argue that we do exist regardless of bodies and memories. We are a unique spirit not contingent on bodies or memories and that if we lose a part of our body or our memories we exist all the same and do not become "someone" different. We are unique spirits independent of bodies and minds. We exist regardless.
I look forward to your thoughts and scriptures.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Alexander Martin on -
I don't get it. How can man put a spirit into the image of the beast if spirit is the breath of God? Are you saying we will be able to one day detect God's breath and be able to manipulate it thereby giving life to whatever inanimate objects we chose kind of like how Optimus Prime uses the creation matrix to bring new life to recently built transformers?
Allen W. Jones said:Alexander said: "Did God breath into this evil immage of the beast to give it life?"
No, man does assumably from the spirit God breathed into us.
You see, the possibility of artificial intelligence is a real one. Conway's Life game and others have shown how basic (non conscious) intelligent choices could be made. In fact, the telephone and internet system of routers make intelligent decisions all day long but they are not conscious.
There are even robots and android forms that appear human (made in our image?) and can interact according to their programs.. I think it is fair to say the beast image could be something of that sort either electronic or android. But even man-made artificial intelligence could only be an extension of man.. albeit acting autonomously.
But perhaps that is the point.. man will think to be like God and create in man's image in direct rebellion towards God Himself.
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Permalink Reply by Alexander Martin on
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No, what you're talking about is mankind breathing spirit into a dust body and making it a living soul.
By the way, you missed some of the qualities of spirit:
love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self control, truth, knowledge, wisdom, understanding, comforter/helper, freedom, guide for will of god, teacher, reveals sin and righteousness, righteousness, remembrance, power, industriousness, prophesy, judgment, strength, instruction, counsel and might, fear of the Lord, life
So, if I hear you right, you're saying the spirit of God is something tangible like electricity, actual wind, fire, and smoke. It looks to me like you're using a little smoke and mirrors yourself. Spirit is an imaterial substance and not something we can measure and manipulate.
Isaiah 31:3 says, "Now the Egyptians are men, and not God; and their horses flesh, and not spirit."
Luke 24:39 says, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."
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Permalink Reply by Alexander Martin on
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I supose my answer is that I reject your premise.
You said: "Can we right now as humans put knowledge into a computer? How about wisdom and truth? Can we power a robot using 'lightning'? It would seem that to some degree this is not only possible but already completed.."
It seems that you would define the spirit which makes a dust body a living soul as knowledge, wisdom, truth, and electricity. This would lead me to believe that you fundamentally misunderstand the substance of spirit. Of course I may be wrong. Have we created life with our computers? Are our computers a living soul? Did we imbue them with a spirit? Is spirit really that superficial?
You acused me of evading your question but I thought I had answered it. The funny thing is, you love evading many of my questions when you feel you don't have an answer for them. I'm more than happy to answer every single question you ask and cover each detail. So let's get down to the business of determining the substance of spirit. Surely you don't really think it is the wind blowing through the trees or the breath going in and coming out of our lungs. Please tell me you don't really think it's electricity.
Allen W. Jones said:Alexander, you evade my previous question.
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