Christian Anthropologists

Comment

Comment by Jim Brenneman on January 3, 2012 at 5:15pm

Neolithic Culture is not an age, but a practice of those to whom metals are unavailable, or for whom metallurgy is unknown or not recalled (Job 30:1-8).

The children of Moses received for circumcision with a STONE, even though the culture of his homeland (Egypt) was already well advanced (Ex. 4:25)!

Add to that people today who live in penthouse apartments and drive Porsches also use stone tipped arrows for hunting. Stone technology is not a predecessor to "advanced" culture. Never was. Not according to the Bible.

Comment by Jim Brenneman on January 3, 2012 at 5:07pm

Lou, what Thomas and I are trying to explain is that the worldly view that neolithic is an "age" prior to the building of pyramids and other monumental structures is incorrect. Stone survival practices are taught by special ops military. You can't build a smelting operation while on the move, but you can find knappable materials readily and make them sharp and form deadly weapons and useful tools.

While neolithic culture is found in layers around the world, nevertheless, like "living fossils," the culture and technology persists. It was not a stage or age prior to the technology of Tubal-Cain and Noah and Babel and Egypt and Babylon, rather it was a system that arose out of necessity for those who lacked the setting to smelt and farm and build. And as the Bible reveals, the cave dwellers were those who were in flight, outcasts, refugees, and those driven from society. It was NOT an earlier stage in human development, but rather a digression and degeneration from the high levels of technology that arose in the days long before the Flood.

You still talk about the Sophistication of Noah and the Egyptians as if it were preceded by a gradual process of rising out of neolithic practices, as if these must be less advanced, more primitive, earlier, older, and prior to Egypt. Wrong.

And now, moving from biology and paleontology, you come to anthropology and again endeavor to interpret Scripture based on the methods and finds of the science of archaeology.

You must START with Scripture and let it speak. The Flood was global, and no matter how much you feel the need to revise that "from an archeological position," the simple truth of Scripture is that everyone was killed in the Flood, except the family on the Ark. After the Flood all subsequent peoples and cultures descended from these three sons.

I don't mean to "SEEM TO BE PAINTING" anything. The timeline is clear. Flood was about 4500 years ago, and from the three sons of Noah all peoples and cultures of the earth arose. That is what the Bible say, not some mysterious book like Glenn refers to, nor based on adding up some figures according to an obscure mystical numerological formula.

All were destroyed except "eight souls," and all subsequent humanity is descended from the three sons of Noah.

The problem is that you say you want support "from Scripture," but you constantly argue against the plain sense of Scripture "in the light of science" whether it be biology, geology, palaeontology, or now anthropology/archaeology.

Then you said:

To which I say, "HUH?" The evidence of Scripture, the plain statements of Scripture make it clear that we are all descended from the families of Noah's three sons. There were no survivors on the "isles of the nations." Those populations themselves derived from those selfsame sons of Noah.

neolithic peoples as being interspersed during this time?   What makes you so sure that your right about this?

Neolithic is not an age, nor an era, nor some preliminary developmental stage in the rise of human civilization. That is a secular falsehood which Bible-believers reject based on Genesis Four. The evidence is in the fact that the neolithic, or Lithicpractices and lifestylecontinues and persists throughout time and around the world wherever there are people with adequate intelligence and adaptability to implement that innovative technology of improvisation in the wild. Some are satisfied with it and have not desire or inclination to go back to the higher levels of technology of their predecessors.

Just like some people today continue to enjoy hunting with "primitive" weapons, or living in wild natural structures and settings, so it happened with some who left the high levels of technology at Babel. They did not take it with them, or when they got to their new homes their descendents were unable to recall it, but lived on the improvisational technologies they employed in the years and generations of their migration from Babel.

Start with the Bible and its simple narrative and let the sciences conform to that inerrant truth rather than trying to reinterpret the Bible to fit with the fallible conclusions of secular science.

Comment by Lou Hamby on January 3, 2012 at 4:30pm

Thomas how many years between Noah and Babel do you think it was?

Comment by Lou Hamby on January 3, 2012 at 4:27pm

Ok jim, just don't put words in my mouth with the comment about western centric--there is a whole big difference between a Neolithic hunter gatherer than an egyptian city or any of the other cultures you mentioned.  It seems interesting to me Jim, but maybe not to you--that these neolithic even post flood as you say have an a actual place or layer in the soils of the world and the

actual tools and technology all seem to be consistant with one another.  Thats all I am saying. When one reads about Noah and his ship building, and other cities that were built in 222 years after Noah such as those Abraham mentions, the level of sophistication seems much greater, so you can make your argument and hold to that, I am fine with that, but I tell you from an archeological positon the two are not the same cultures or the same people, the worship structure seems different, so I have a hard time placing neolithic peoples as a Christian in the time line you seem to be painting here?  Can you support that by Scripture.  Because the evidence in Scripture is of a peoples of a different type.  Many of the great cultures including meso-america and china, India all came to fruition in the same era, but I don't get that from the neolithic peoples as being interspersed during this time?   What makes you so sure that your right about this, what evidence can you give me that this is true.  You infere as well as Tom does that these people are post flood, all I see form the bible is a more sophisticated culture that explodes on the scene with cities and technology and metallurgy and of course agrarian existence as opposed to hunter gathers?  Although we all know many nations have had nomadic peoples

but they still have a level of sophistication that doesn't seem to fit well with neolithic peoples as I understand their culture??? 

Comment by Jim Brenneman on January 3, 2012 at 3:14pm

From the biblical perspective, they are post-flood. Now the task of people who believe in the Bible is to keep returning the investigators and the examiners to interpret their finds in that light. As migrations advanced away from the area of Babel, those individual may or may not have possessed the knowledge of technologies, and they may or may not have carried with them the tools of technology. If they did not, then they found it necessary to start from the GROUND UP, literally - at least using stone tools and crude implements until they were able to source he ores necessary to enter a metal based technology level. Some however never managed to pass on the metallurgy skills as effectively and were content to continue their cultures with stone technology alone.

All of the archaeologists who are creationists have no problem with Egypt. Egypt arose after the Flood as the Bible reveals in its inerrant record. There are dozens of books and scores of articles written on the biblical approach to archaeology and you have often been pointed to these studies. We point you to these studies, not to bolster our position by the mere mention of the fact that the studies exist. It is one thing to try to buttress one's shaky position by listing many names of individuals who reject the simple sense of Scripture; it is another thing entirely to examine the conclusion of those who hold to the simple sense of the Revelation from the first book to the last, and that is a global, universal world wide flood which killed every person except those who were on the ark.

And who would be so Western-Centric to assert that the culture of Egypt was more advanced than that of the Incas, or Nazcas, or Aztecs or Mayans, or the ancient Chinese, or the Stonehenge builders, or the builders of Cambodian temples, or the navigators who reached remote Islands.

Just because someone who is exploring today is living in a tent, does not mean they are more primitive than people living at the same time frame in a bustling metropolis.

Certainly no one is saying that all people after Babel were neolithics. Rather we would assert that all neolithics are POST-FLOOD. and there are people living in stone-use (rather than stone-age) culture today, now, in the 21st century. They chose not to use computers. I for one do not own a cell-phone or an ipad or iphone neither 1g nor 4g. I do own a Bible or two.

Comment by David Thomas Posey on January 3, 2012 at 3:05pm

The Egyptians fit into the Babel scenario as descendants of Ham's son Mizraim, who settled along the Nile with their own unique language gained at Babel and built mega-structures like they had done at Babel. 

When people were on the move from Babel they lived as what we commonly call "hunter/gatherers", living in movable or quickly constructed dwellings and eating what they could catch and collect.  They generally did not stay in one place long enough to get into "advanced" industry (Iron working, crop production, etc.). 

When they did settle in a place, they instantly knew how to plant and cultivate crops, make pottery, build impressive structures, and so forth.  Archeologists are frequently puzzled as to why they can't find evidence of a gradual buildup to civilization, just a sudden sophistication.  This is easily explained as evidence that the people suddenly arrived and settled in the place. 

Comment by Lou Hamby on January 3, 2012 at 2:31pm

Thomas, I don't get it admittedly I can be hard headed, but why post-flood?  They are fallen whats?  The only thing I can say archeologically which I mentioned is they all use the same tools, and have the same "more or less M.O. with respect to their culture and the archeological digs we would both have to agree I think support that.  Flint arrow heads, lances, etc. for killing animals, less agriculture.  Certainly by modern standards excellent survivors but not exactly city folk and certainly not on par with the Egyptians who were active and other fertile crescent peoples shortly after the flood. Thomas men were fallen before the flood too?  It seems the 26 cities that Abraham mentions in his writings had already advanced in culture to a different level, and even the babel people reflect an arrogance towards God in their building ability. So where did the Egyptians as a Christian archeologist fit into the babel scenario?  I'm sorry as I don't get it so maybe I am not aware of some information you are? All I said is there is a specific archeological layer (s) that seem to bring up neolithic people all over the world? It doesn't in my humble understanding seem the neolithic experience and subsequent archeological discoveries can be tied to a local area? Or are you saying all people after babel were neolithic peoples?  I'm confused by this?

Comment by David Thomas Posey on January 3, 2012 at 2:14pm

Lou, I believe the general consensus about the "neolithic" people you were referring to is that they were post-flood.  That is the reason for the continuity of language and culture into recent times.  The moral rebellion and all are tragically typical of the post-Babel migrants.

Comment by Jim Brenneman on January 3, 2012 at 1:55pm

The Flood was universal, global, world-wide. It is a misreading of the plain sense of the text to derive any sense that the Islands of the Gentiles were already inhabited when Noah and his family exited the Ark.

Comment by Lou Hamby on January 3, 2012 at 9:41am

David wonderful site and posting idea.....!

So let me ask a question, actually this goes back to other discussions and still my curiosity as to answers about archeology....

When we read the account of Genesis and the eventual flood and restart of mankind on earth, the social status of building boats, cities, and all kinds of "modern" if you will injunctions from scripture show a developed man or mankind in Noah's sons and with in 222 years there are something like 26 cities mentioned my Abraham?  

Perviously you mentioned about Asian-Pacific Isanders? So with respect to archeology, why is that there is a neolithic layer of discovery all over the world? 

The tools the hearths and food and even housing is mediocre compared to the offspring of Noah? These neolithic peoples including in the Americas ate Bison, Mammoth, and other extinct animal species, I assume these are pre-flood people?  They used flint and bone spear and arrow heads, and even though many come from many different areas of the world there is a type of "Neolithic" language of survival and living that was everywhere in the world....what of the ancient peoples of Australia which white men didn't even consider human?  Housing was everything from a mud hut to long houses.  Everything from dug out boats to more sophisticated boats, but the layers of Neolithic discoveries all seem to tie in within certain ages or time spans,and the same survival type of tools and instrumentation correspond to one another no matter what continent they are found on.  Lastly the ice age...

There seems to be a dichotomy between biblical man and neolithic man with respect to culture, survival, and even actual worship?  This seems odd to me because the bible pre-flood does not seem to inculcate this neolithic type description of mankind....Adam and Eves culture seems to be advanced and based on agriculture, where as neolithic peoples seemed to be more into meat eating and a simpler less modern approach to the world?  Have you ever thought of these comparisons that we know exist, and I believe there is a lot of stuff that has been hidden or even twisted to fit certain outcomes.  So not sure we all have the truth even by well meaning scientists???? 

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