I think this fits in the Dinosaur group (although if someone wanted to start a "Megafauna Group" I'd be very happy) because there are always comparisons between large, hairy mammals and Dinosaurs. Also getting a good chronology in relation to each other, from a Biblical perspective is important for Creationists.  

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Everyone always talks about an ICE AGE. This implies a global coverage and a certain amount of time. Can we discuss a local or several local events? Do we have any evidence of a worldwide Iceage?

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"Ice Age" does not imply, nor does it require global coverage. There was never a time when the entire globe was covered with ice. However ice did cover well over half of North America. Indeed, there does seem to be substantial evidence in the earth for a major ice event lasting several years at some point since the Global Flood. In order for such a massive snow/ice pack to accumulate, it would necessitate what would best be identified as a single global weather pattern of some considerable duration - several years or maybe even several centuries.

All of the mainstream creationist organizations concur in this assessment. A single lengthy ice event with periods of waxing and waning is also confirmed and supported by the Scriptures.

The Bible declares that very cold temperatures and the freezing of the Seas, as well as storehouses of ice and snow, were the way God dealt with the waters of the flood for somewhat of a lengthy time span. This is recorded in the one book of the Bible that was written prior to the giving of the law, prior to the time of the recognized patriarchs and the nation of Israel - that is the book of Job. Other mention is made also in the Psalms, of the snow and ice as a method used by God to store up great amounts of water.

Jim, thanks for your knowledgeable response. I remember reading somewhere that when the fountains of the deep opened up, they could have shot up to the upper atmosphere where the temperature is below zero. This could have rained down heavy snows and heavy ice. Could you share the Job and Psalms verses? Could you also share the
  resources for glacial deposits? Thank you


Jim Brenneman said:

"Ice Age" does not imply, nor does it require global coverage. There was never a time when the entire globe was covered with ice. However ice did cover well over half of North America here does seem to be substantial evidence in the earth for a major ice event lasting several years at some point since the Global Flood. In order for such a massive snow/ice pack to accumulate, it would necessitate what would best be identified as a single global weather pattern of some considerable duration - several years or maybe even several centuries.

All of the mainstream creationist organizations concur in this assessment. A single lengthy ice event with periods of waxing and waning is also confirmed and supported by the Scriptures.

I

The Bible declares that very cold temperatures and the freezing of the Seas, as well as storehouses of ice and snow, were the way God dealt with the waters of the flood for somewhat of a lengthy time span, as recorded in the one book of the Bible that was written prior to the giving of the law, prior to the time of the recognized patriarchs and the nation of Israel - that is the book of Job. Other mention is made also in the Psalms of the snow and ice as a method used by God to store up great amounts of water.

I hope this discussion hasn't died out.  It's one of the more fascinating topics on CC.  Michael Oard's book, Frozen in Time, made a great deal of sense to me in giving very plausible explanations for two things:  (1) the extinction of huge numbers of woolly mammoths (probably in the millions), and (2) the rare and unique conditions that would cause an ice age.  The extinction of the woolly mammoths was most likely connected to the onset of the ice age.  

John Coons said:

Jim, thanks for your knowledgeable response. I remember reading somewhere that when the fountains of the deep opened up, they could have shot up to the upper atmosphere where the temperature is below zero. This could have rained down heavy snows and heavy ice. Could you share the Job and Psalms verses? Could you also share the resources for glacial deposits? Thank you


Jim Brenneman said:

In order for such a massive snow/ice pack to accumulate, it would necessitate what would best be identified as a single global weather pattern of some considerable duration - several years or maybe even several centuries. All of the mainstream creationist organizations concur in this assessment. A single lengthy ice event with periods of waxing and waning is also confirmed and supported by the Scriptures.

John has requested more specific references from Scripture.The Bible declares that very cold temperatures and the freezing of the Seas, as well as storehouses of ice and snow, were the way God dealt with the waters of the flood for somewhat of a lengthy time span, as recorded in the one book of the Bible that was written prior to the giving of the law, prior to the time of the recognized patriarchs and before the existence of nation of Israel - that is the book of Job.

Here is a passage which suggests great EXTREMES of temperature in the time of Job, at least at some point in his recollection:

15. My brothers have dealt deceitfully like a brook,
Like the streams of the brooks that pass away,
16 Which are dark because of the ice,
And into which the snow vanishes.
17 When it is warm, they cease to flow;
When it is hot, they vanish from their place.
18 The paths of their way turn aside,
They go nowhere and perish. Job 6:15-18

Job apparently had recollections of a era of great and extensive tectonic events:

5 He removes the mountains, and they do not know
When He overturns them in His anger;
He shakes the earth out of its place,
And its pillars tremble;
He commands the sun, and it does not rise;
He seals off the stars;
He alone spreads out the heavens,
And treads on the waves of the sea;
He made the Bear, Orion, and the Pleiades,
And the chambers of the south;
10 He does great things past finding out,
Yes, wonders without number. Job 9:5-10

The blocking of sunlight and stars (Job 9:7) is an element of the conditions that must have prevailed in an era of extreme ice and snow. Not that Job lived in the land of ice and snow, but even in the middle east, the lack of sunlight and the obscuring of even the stars was obvious. Water was known to come from melting snow and this water was viewed as clean and pure (Job 9:30). This is not a common phenomena in the land of the middle east today, and again suggest that streams flowing in abundance from the north were known to derive from Snow: "If I wash myself with snow water,
And cleanse my hands with soap," and "
As drought and heat consume the snow waters, so the grave consumes those who have have sinned" (Job 9:30; 24:19). Here we see a report of a phenomena in which rivers flowed from melting snow, but soaked into the dry desert, or evaporated in the heat.

Job gives and extensive description of a time of great snow storms, a bit of an enigma since this is in a land with camels and desert wadis, and other practices and phenomena associated with the middle east.

5 God thunders marvelously with His voice;
He does great things which we cannot comprehend.
For He says to the snow, ‘Fall on the earth,'
Likewise to the gentle rain and the heavy rain of His strength.
He seals the hand of every man,
That all men may know His work.
The beasts go into dens,
And remain in their lairs.
From the chamber of the south comes the whirlwind,
And cold from the scattering winds of the north.
10 By the breath of God ice is given,
And the broad waters [seas or oceans] are frozen.
11 Also with moisture He saturates the thick clouds;
He scatters His bright clouds.
12 And they swirl about, being turned by His guidance,
That they may do whatever He commands them
On the face of the whole earth. Job 37:5-12

God corrects the arrogance of Job, pointing out that Job was not present when the earth was formed, rising out of the waters as dry land. Further, God declares that Job was not present when the original boundaries of the sea were set, nor did Job know the mechanism by which God once caused the seas to "burst forth," or how he again reset the boundaries so that waters would never again cover all the earth (Job 38:1-11). And then in this address to Job by the words of God, God speaks of how He STORES WATER in a "treasury of snow" and how He causes great channels for overflowing water (Job 38:22-25).

22 “Have you entered the treasury of snow,
Or have you seen the treasury of hail,
23 Which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
For the day of battle and war?
24 By what way is light diffused,
Or the east wind scattered over the earth?

25 “Who has divided a channel for the overflowing water,
Or a path for the thunderbolt,
26 To cause it to rain on a land where there is no one,
A wilderness in which there is no man;
27 To satisfy the desolate waste,
And cause to spring forth the growth of tender grass?
28 Has the rain a father?
Or who has begotten the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
And the frost of heaven, who gives it birth?
30 The waters harden like stone,
And the surface of the deep is frozen. Job 38:22-30

Here is a description of FROZEN OCEANS! Such a phenomena has never been known in the land of the middle east in any time known to modern students of civilization and anthropology. This must be an indication that in Job's day such circumstances were indeed known to him. No book of the Bible makes such abundant reference to cold conditions, and ice and snow and frozen oceans. All of the books of the Bible to our knowledge were written in the middle east and in the balmy regions of the Mediterranean Sea - including Job. But Job was written in a time when a set of climate conditions prevailed that were a bit different!

Then the Psalmists were also familiar with catastrophic weather and tectonic events, including hail and snow (Ps. 147:15-18; 148:8). But Scripture is spare in reference to cold and ice and snow, except for that earliest book written, JOB.

Thanks Jim, that helps a lot.



Jim Brenneman said:

John Coons said:

Jim, thanks for your knowledgeable response. I remember reading somewhere that when the fountains of the deep opened up, they could have shot up to the upper atmosphere where the temperature is below zero. This could have rained down heavy snows and heavy ice. Could you share the Job and Psalms verses? Could you also share the resources for glacial deposits? Thank you


Jim Brenneman said:

In order for such a massive snow/ice pack to accumulate, it would necessitate what would best be identified as a single global weather pattern of some considerable duration - several years or maybe even several centuries. All of the mainstream creationist organizations concur in this assessment. A single lengthy ice event with periods of waxing and waning is also confirmed and supported by the Scriptures.

John has requested more specific references from Scripture.The Bible declares that very cold temperatures and the freezing of the Seas, as well as storehouses of ice and snow, were the way God dealt with the waters of the flood for somewhat of a lengthy time span, as recorded in the one book of the Bible that was written prior to the giving of the law, prior to the time of the recognized patriarchs and before the existence of nation of Israel - that is the book of Job.

Here is a passage which suggests great EXTREMES of temperature in the time of Job, at least at some point in his recollection:

15. My brothers have dealt deceitfully like a brook,
Like the streams of the brooks that pass away,
16 Which are dark because of the ice,
And into which the snow vanishes.
17 When it is warm, they cease to flow;
When it is hot, they vanish from their place.
18 The paths of their way turn aside,
They go nowhere and perish. Job 6:15-18

Job apparently had recollections of a era of great and extensive tectonic events:

5 He removes the mountains, and they do not know
When He overturns them in His anger;
He shakes the earth out of its place,
And its pillars tremble;
He commands the sun, and it does not rise;
He seals off the stars;
He alone spreads out the heavens,
And treads on the waves of the sea;
He made the Bear, Orion, and the Pleiades,
And the chambers of the south;
10 He does great things past finding out,
Yes, wonders without number. Job 9:5-10

The blocking of sunlight and stars (Job 9:7) is an element of the conditions that must have prevailed in an era of extreme ice and snow. Not that Job lived in the land of ice and snow, but even in the middle east, the lack of sunlight and the obscuring of even the stars was obvious. Water was known to come from melting snow and this water was viewed as clean and pure (Job 9:30). This is not a common phenomena in the land of the middle east today, and again suggest that streams flowing in abundance from the north were known to derive from Snow: "If I wash myself with snow water,
And cleanse my hands with soap," and "
As drought and heat consume the snow waters, so the grave consumes those who have have sinned" (Job 9:30; 24:19). Here we see a report of a phenomena in which rivers flowed from melting snow, but soaked into the dry desert, or evaporated in the heat.

Job gives and extensive description of a time of great snow storms, a bit of an enigma since this is in a land with camels and desert wadis, and other practices and phenomena associated with the middle east.

5 God thunders marvelously with His voice;
He does great things which we cannot comprehend.
For He says to the snow, ‘Fall on the earth,'
Likewise to the gentle rain and the heavy rain of His strength.
He seals the hand of every man,
That all men may know His work.
The beasts go into dens,
And remain in their lairs.
From the chamber of the south comes the whirlwind,
And cold from the scattering winds of the north.
10 By the breath of God ice is given,
And the broad waters [seas or oceans] are frozen.
11 Also with moisture He saturates the thick clouds;
He scatters His bright clouds.
12 And they swirl about, being turned by His guidance,
That they may do whatever He commands them
On the face of the whole earth. Job 37:5-12

God corrects the arrogance of Job, pointing out that Job was not present when the earth was formed, rising out of the waters as dry land. Further, God declares that Job was not present when the original boundaries of the sea were set, nor did Job know the mechanism by which God once caused the seas to "burst forth," or how he again reset the boundaries so that waters would never again cover all the earth (Job 38:1-11). And then in this address to Job by the words of God, God speaks of how He STORES WATER in a "treasury of snow" and how He causes great channels for overflowing water (Job 38:22-25).

22 “Have you entered the treasury of snow,
Or have you seen the treasury of hail,
23 Which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
For the day of battle and war?
24 By what way is light diffused,
Or the east wind scattered over the earth?

25 “Who has divided a channel for the overflowing water,
Or a path for the thunderbolt,
26 To cause it to rain on a land where there is no one,
A wilderness in which there is no man;
27 To satisfy the desolate waste,
And cause to spring forth the growth of tender grass?
28 Has the rain a father?
Or who has begotten the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
And the frost of heaven, who gives it birth?
30 The waters harden like stone,
And the surface of the deep is frozen. Job 38:22-30

Here is a description of FROZEN OCEANS! Such a phenomena has never been known in the land of the middle east in any time known to modern students of civilization and anthropology. This must be an indication that in Job's day such circumstances were indeed known to him. No book of the Bible makes such abundant reference to cold conditions, and ice and snow and frozen oceans. All of the books of the Bible to our knowledge were written in the middle east and in the balmy regions of the Mediterranean Sea - including Job. But Job was written in a time when a set of climate conditions prevailed that were a bit different!

Then the Psalmists were also familiar with catastrophic weather and tectonic events, including hail and snow (Ps. 147:15-18; 148:8). But Scripture is spare in reference to cold and ice and snow, except for that earliest book written, JOB.

I think the reason why the Bible doesn't treat more on the Ice Age is because it would have had little if any effect on Ancient Mesopotamia and by the time of the Exodus it would have been over.

I enjoyed Mr. Oard's book a lot. It answered many of the questions I had about the Ice Age, especially concerning the weather and geology. That's not surprising seeing that Mr. Oard is (or was?) a meteorologist. I wish someone who wanted to look more into the animals from a creationist perspective would write a book. Have you looked at the June issue of AiG's magazine?  

Carolyn Reeves said:

I hope this discussion hasn't died out.  It's one of the more fascinating topics on CC.  Michael Oard's book, Frozen in Time, made a great deal of sense to me in giving very plausible explanations for two things:  (1) the extinction of huge numbers of woolly mammoths (probably in the millions), and (2) the rare and unique conditions that would cause an ice age.  The extinction of the woolly mammoths was most likely connected to the onset of the ice age.  


Jim Brennerman's references to the book of Job was very interesting.  It had never occurred to me that the significance of verse 30 that was referenced: "The waters harden like stone, And the surface of the deep is frozen."   Another Verse 10 also refers to frozen oceans:  "And the broad waters [seas or oceans] are frozen."  (As a side note, this makes one wonder how Job knew about places where the ocean was frozen. There is a good possibility that ships were traveling great distances and caravans were traveling north of where Job lived. Sailors and merchants would have reported the icy conditions.)

Back on topic, frozen oceans would make bridges by which some of the animals could migrate further south as the ice encroached on their feeding grounds and sources of drinking water. Tom DeRosa with Creation Studies Institute has collected a large number of ice age animals remains from the Peace River in Florida.    These are displayed in a museum at Fort Lauderdale.  One of the most spectacular displays is a tusk from a Columbian mammoth.  I took my daughter and 2 grandchildren on one of the float trips CSI sponsors a few years ago.  Our big find was a rare mega shark tooth.  

Job speaks of FAST SHIPS (Job 9:26).

Carolyn Reeves said:

There is a good possibility that ships were traveling great distances and caravans were traveling north of where Job lived. Sailors and merchants would have reported the icy conditions.

Anyone have an opinion of this possibility?  (Much has been borrowed from Michael Oard.)  The Ice Age began after the Flood. The ocean waters would have been warmed by exposure to heat from tectonic breaks and from volcanic activity. The warm water would have evaporated in copious amounts and formed clouds. In the regions farther removed from the equator, large amount of snow would have fallen in the winter.  The summers would have been cooler than they are today because of the cloud cover and volcanic ash in the air.  That means the snow and ice would only partially melt during the summer. The  conditions of (1) warmer ocean waters and (2) cooler summers would have started the ice age.  Siberia and some of the other arctic regions during the first few hundred years after the Flood would have been ideal places for herds of large grass-eating animals, such as woolly mammoths, to live.  Then as the ice age deepened, the abundant grasses and sources of water would have diminished.  Many of the large animals would have been forced to migrate further south in search of food and water.  I doubt that dinosaurs ever attempted to live in cold climates, but they  probably lived at the same time as ice age animals.  Any thoughts?   (I don't mind critical comments.)       

I think you have well-articulated the consensus of Creationist thought.

Carolyn Reeves said:

Anyone have an opinion of this possibility?  (Much has been borrowed from Michael Oard.)  The Ice Age began after the Flood. The ocean waters would have been warmed by exposure to heat from tectonic breaks and from volcanic activity.

Catastrophic Plate Tectonics might have made the oceans BOIL in places! Vast lava flows of thousands of square miles would also produce geysers of steam, and set the waters to boiling as well. The atmosphere had to be saturated with water. Dust and ash from volcanism filled the skies and served as nuclei for the precipitation of moisture in the form of rain in temperate latitudes, and as snow and ice and sleet in latitudes nearer the poles.

The warm water would have evaporated in copious amounts and formed clouds. In the regions farther removed from the equator, large amount of snow would have fallen in the winter.  The summers would have been cooler than they are today because of the cloud cover and volcanic ash in the air.

Summers must have been cooler. There was a time after the Flood when the middle east was a lush, well-watered garden. The region of the Dead Sea in the time of Abram and Lot was an attractive and desirable spot. Sahara was a verdant plain. Job was acquainted with snow and snow water as a regular phenomena where he lived. Job mentions extended periods when the sun and stars were not visible. This is further evidence of increased tectonic activity during and after the Flood. Cosmic impacts would also eject dust and debris upward.

Life on earth was hard immediately following the Flood.

 That means the snow and ice would only partially melt during the summer. The  conditions of (1) warmer ocean waters and (2) cooler summers would have started the ice age.  Siberia and some of the other arctic regions during the first few hundred years after the Flood would have been ideal places for herds of large grass-eating animals, such as woolly mammoths, to live.

Earlier someone mentioned animals traveling across FROZEN SEAS, or Ice Bridges. This is not the thought of most creationists. Rather, it is surmised that ocean levels were still LOW, due to water stored in vast inland reservoirs, such a would be described as "Seas," dwarfing even the Great Lakes of North America. Then too, water was stored in the Ice and Snow packs covering the poles. SO, the Bering Strait was a land bridge hundreds of miles wide, a grassy plain with relatively liveable weather.

In the southern hemisphere where vegetation prints in coal has a number of symmetrical and radial root patterns - there is a suggestion of the "Floating Forest" Eco-system - vegetation not growing in soil, but floating atop the water. But that does not relate so much to the ice age. These plant forms that became coal probably originate from before the Flood.

 Then as the ice age deepened, the abundant grasses and sources of water would have diminished.  Many of the large animals would have been forced to migrate further south in search of food and water.

And this seems to be exactly the case. The animals came on a bee-line to the Ark, but they meandered in post-flood dispersion. Oh, to be sure there are some animals that instinctively went as fast and as far as they could. There are people of both dispositions, and so animals have those that are more "home-body" in nature, and those that are more adventurous types.

Some tend to like "elbow room" akin to early American pioneers who felt crowded when they saw smoke from a neighbor's cabin rising from a valley miles away. Others are "herd" animals and seek the companionship of other animals, perhaps under the assumption of safety in numbers. Both people and animals feature these distinct dispositions.

So, it seems reasonable to assume that some animals just dispersed as far as necessary to find adequate food and water. Others were on a mission to move onward and outward to some designated place to which they were directed by divinely implanted instinct. Some species (variations of kinds) reached their current home range only after hundreds of years and after many generations. Other animals left the ark and went directly to some distant location, without stopping. In this case I think of some birds. But land animals of certain types might have dispersed rapidly as a pair, before stopping to set up a nesting place or den.

But the ice age did serve as a storage system to hold water and allow for lower ocean levels for quite a few years, even centuries. It was a few hundred years AFTER Babel that the Black Sea Flood occurred. It was a few hundred years after Babel that those famous coastal cities now inundated on the continental shelves were destroyed by rising ocean levels. It was a few hundreds years after the Flood that a vast inland sea of North America rapidly drained to the southwest to erode the Grand Canyon. The once lower sea levels were soon a thing of the past a the land areas continued to uplift and drain of their water.

 I doubt that dinosaurs ever attempted to live in cold climates, but they  probably lived at the same time as ice age animals.

Dinosaur remains from AFTER the Flood are few and far between. There a few places where it appears even some herds of dinosaurs were destroyed and buried AFTER the flood, but the dino remains in northern latitudes and the fossils of temperate forest in the Arctic and Antarctic are likely from before the Flood, in flood deposited strata. But certainly dinosaurs did live at the SAME TIME as ice age animals, but not likely in areas dominated by frigid conditions. It is even thought mammoths did not thrive in the icy conditions, but preferred grassy plains more like the areas of central southern Canada now and the plains of the north central states of the U.S.

And Jack Cuozzo in Buried Alive, has a photo of a cave painting featuring a RAPTOR butting heads with a Mammoth. So they did live in the same regions, or their ranges at least over-lapped.

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