Creationism as a science vs the faith of Jesus: the fight for the true gospel

The modern version of the gospel has been watered down to knowledge: knowing the essential doctrines, the basic tenants of the scriptures. In this knowledge people believe they are saved. Let me explain further. Many denominations have a list of doctrines that they supposedly adhere to. These are "beliefs" about God, the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit; and about the Bible, etc. Some denominations include beliefs on how one is saved, some do not. But all denominations imply that theirs is the correct belief. None instruct us on the unity of the faith and the doctrine of anti-denominationalism that is taught by Paul in Corinthians, because all have fallen from this basic teaching of the Lord Jesus, that we are to be one, even as He and the Father are one, and we are to be in Him. But without diverting to that "essential truth," let's discuss knowledge.

Can knowledge of the Son of God save you? Knowledge about God and correct doctrine seems essential to all churches, but is knowledge truth?  Jesus said, "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." There is certainly a multiple meaning in this statement. Jesus said at another time: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me." Knowing the living Lord Jesus is essential, as is knowing the truth about our sins and our state so that we might repent with the help of God. Paul tells us that "the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes." So the truth of the gospel is vital, but the gospel is more than truth... it is the power of God. The gospel is the word from God to man about salvation and how to live this life. It is the knowledge of God and his Son and the Holy Spirit, but, again, it is more than knowledge, it is POWER.

Without power, the power of God, we cannot be saved or be Christians or do anything fruitful. "As many as received him, to them he gave power to become the sons of God...born not of blood or the will of the flesh or the will of men, but of God." Paul said, "And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God." 1 Cor 2:4-5 (KJV) And again, "But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power. 20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power." 1 Cor 4:19-20 (KJV)

Today, in so many churches, their Christianity is in word only. There is no power. And this leads me to the topic of this discussion. Can churches or men teach the "truth" of creationism if they have not the power of God? Is the knowledge about God creating all things in 6 days sufficient? Even with all the scientific details of proof added, is this knowledge sufficient or is this knowledge the truth about creation?  I would say, "No, it isn't."  I would suggest that a religion or religions apart from the true faith of Christ can have the correct knowledge (to a degree) about the Creation and many other Biblical truths, but be void of power and the life of God. And, in effect, they can be leading people astray.

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Comment by Douglas Roy on October 13, 2014 at 9:18pm

I am amazed at how people somehow think it is good to simply accept someone's testimony without question, completely throwing out the admonition to "try the spirits to see whether they be of God." Of course, there is no need to seek for understanding or wisdom with such an attitude or to truly be concerned for people's souls, or to grow up in the Lord. Somehow, discerning the true state of a man, examining his fruit and his doctrine, is a lost practice of Christians in this generation. Neither is there very much admonition, reproof, or exhortation. I think it is the reason why there is so much sin and division among those who profess the name of Christ and so many false gospels. The Lord Jesus looked at hardly no man as part of the kingdom of God and preached that men should "repent and believe the good news." And, "except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."
Luke 13:3 (KJV)

He constantly discerned the state of men and spoke bluntly with them about their sin, howbeit, in a kind way most of the time. But to the hypocrites, he was straightforward and minced no words. Christ loved righteousness and truth and we are to be the same. How can we do that if we don't even know what is right and wrong or true and false? Paul said, "He that is spiritual judges all things." (I Cor 2:15) John said, "We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error." 1 John 4:6 (KJV) 

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? " Jer 17:9 (KJV) We ought not be so naive to think that just anybody saying they are a Christian or a preacher has truly been born again in this day of apostasy.

Comment by Charles Martin Jr on October 13, 2014 at 5:03am

Douglas,

I see your point, but I am concerned that you come to someone (in this case, Aaron), and start telling him that he doesn't have the Holy Spirit . . . that belief isn't enough.  John 3:16 tells otherwise.  So does 1 John.  So does Romans.  Now, you are right, in that if we truly believe, we will see change in both our own lives, but also in the lives of non-believers around us as they, too, become disciples of Jesus.  Because if we truly believe in the awesome love and mercy of God, as displayed through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, then we will want everyone to know about this incredible God. 

I agree, as well, that many of our churches today are not part of the Church.  I agree that many people who believe they are Christians are merely cultural Christians, and not disciples.  But I also know, from the Scriptures, that we are not suddenly made perfect and sinless when we become believers, and sometimes we can be disciples, but get caught up in and distracted by doctrines.  Yes, I believe Creation is one of those.  It is very important, because it seeks to point to the inerrant and inspired natures of the Scriptures, but when it becomes the central focus of our lives, it can be a bad thing.  Does that mean that a Creationist is automatically unsaved?  Not at all.  Like the church in Ephesus (Revelations 2), we can be disciples and yet "[forget our] first love."  

If I've misunderstood your point, I apologize, and please let me know of that. 

Comment by Douglas Roy on October 8, 2014 at 10:05am

Everything I have done since August of 1949 when I was born again of the Holy Spirit and 2 months later preached my first sermon on a topic that no one believed then and only one man I know besides myself believe it now.  It is a plain Bible truth and has nothing to do with God's plan of salvation.

It sounds like you preached a heresy as your first sermon, Aaron. You say you are a Landmark Baptist. There beliefs are that like most cults. To believe that only Landmark Baptists are the true bride of Christ is the height of arrogance, and to believe that all other Christians outside the Landmark Baptist "faith" my be part of the Kingdom of God, but are not part of the bride is ridiculous. Nowhere in the Bible is such doctrine taught.

Everything I have done since that time has been to bring honor and glory to my Lord and master Jesus Christ.

I make no decisions that I don't consult God beforehand.

During my lifetime God has had to chasten me a few times when I got too big for my britches and did things on my own without consulting Him.

These two statements don't agree Everything you've done has not brought him glory. And how can one who believes that all his works are as filthy rags think he has somehow brought glory to God...seems to be a contradiction.

Since He has chastised I know that I am still His child because He does not chastise the devils children.

But I am not depending on any of the works I have done to get me eternal life.  I do expect to get rewarded for the things I did right as Paul tells us.

All that I am depending on for eternal life is the Word of Jesus Christ who is God Himself and can not lie.

As I pointed out before, you are not depending upon the Lord Jesus and what he did on the cross, but your faith in his words. They are not the same. In truth, you depend on your faith, as it is the only evidence, besides being chastised, that you have to rely upon. Let's look at what evidence Paul had: he experienced a bright light from heaven, blinding him, and hearing the voice of Jesus talking with him. He was blinded for several days, but God gave him a vision of a man named Ananias coming and laying hands on him. Then this man came and did just that and his sight was restored and he was filled with the Holy Ghost. Shortly after this he preached his first sermon, too, but it wasn't about some topic "that nobody believes even to this day," but about how this Jesus, whom he had met personally, was indeed the Christ, proving it with the scriptures. (When I first talked with people about what happened to me, I told them that this Jesus is ALIVE, risen from the dead!) Paul was persecuted almost immediately, and they tried to kill him. This was evidence of his true faith. (I was opposed by my parents after my baptism and they refused to let me use the car to go to Bible studies. They attempted to stop me from going on with Jesus, but I resisted and moved out. "Your worst enemies will be they of your own household." For ten years our relationship was broken, because they opposed me so strongly. I loved Jesus more than my family.) Paul wanted to join with the Christians at Jerusalem, but they were afraid of him, but Barnabas told them what had happened and how Paul had preached boldly about Christ. Paul was accepted by the other believers whom he once persecuted. He preached to the Jews in Jerusalem, but they plotted to kill him. Paul left and went back to his home and then Arabia, learning from Christ himself the truths of the gospel. His life was filled with testimonies of the power of God, the leading of the Holy Ghost, signs and wonders, healings, seeing thousands saved through his ministry and many filled with the Holy Ghost. He preached with power and demonstration of the Spirit and related the testimonies of how God had mightily used him to the apostles. He was persecuted time and again, whipped, beaten, stoned, imprisoned, going without necessities, suffering great trials because of the ministry Jesus call him to do. He saw Jesus many times and angels. He had an abundance of revelations and helped a great number of people come to the Lord and to grow in the Lord. He finally laid down his life, testifying of Christ before Caesar and being beheaded by the evil ruler. I think Paul, too, would question a testimony that gave the building of two church buildings as the main fruit of one's "faith."

John said if I believed on the only Begotten Son of God I was not condemned. Jesus said I would receive eternal life and I would never perish if I was His sheep and followed Him. John 10:28 

Conclusions:

I came to Jesus and asked Him to save me believing He could save me and give me eternal life.

John said if I believed on the name of the only Begotten Son of God I was not condemned.

As I noted before, there are different kinds of faith. Dead faith and living faith. True saving faith is "the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." God's grace is the "gift of God," too. Jesus is the one who gives this faith as he reveals his presence to a soul. It is not of ourselves. But many presume to have faith and to receive the promises, yet without the true fruit of repentance or the evidence of the power of Christ in their lives, giving them the born again experience, manifesting his presence to them.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jesus said through John the above statement.

I believe what Jesus said.

I have been chastised of God which proves to me I am a child of God.

As far as the best I can do as being filthy rags in the eyes of God I just believe what Isaiah said.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Now you may be a better child of God than Isaiah was, but I don't think I am a better child of God that Isaiah was.  

Isaiah was a mighty man of God, but he was not born again. But he was praying to God and this was part of a prayer of intercession for the people of Israel. I will put the preceding verses with this verse to put into context what you've taken out of context:

For since the world began no one has seen or heard of such a God as ours, who works for those who wait for him! 5 You welcome those who cheerfully do good, who follow godly ways.
But we are not godly; we are constant sinners and have been all our lives. Therefore your wrath is heavy on us. How can such as we be saved? 6 We are all infected and impure with sin. When we put on our prized robes of righteousness, we find they are but filthy rags. Like autumn leaves we fade, wither and fall. And our sins, like the wind, sweep us away. 7 Yet no one calls upon your name or pleads with you for mercy. Therefore, you have turned away from us and turned us over to our sins.
Isaiah 64:4-7 (TLB) 
In the context of this scripture we see Isaiah pleading for his people who don't call upon his name or seek mercy. They are NOT godly but constant sinners. He is using this verse to describe how all people who don't seek God think they are good, but all there good deed are like filthy rags to God. You misuse this verse to justify a fruitless life and to put down Isaiah, who did seek and obey God and lived a godly life. But all Christian are "called unto good works." and Christ said, "let your light (your deeds of faith) so shine before men that they might see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

He concluded that all of us as he used "we" and "our" to say "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags".  That means the best I can do is nothing in the eyes of God.  That is why He came down to earth and died on the cross and was buried and resurrected so His righteousness could be imputed to me.  Because my righteousness is nothing.

This is true for every sinner, but we are not to continue in sin, but to live godly, holy lives, "be holy, for the Lord am holy."

I am amazed at how you can know everything about my life with absolutely no information about it and have concluded because I do not believe as you do that a person can be saved today and lost tomorrow that I have not been born again. 

I am not without information about your life, Aaron. You shared with me many things. Christ said, "you shall know them by their fruits." I gave you ample opportunity to clarify many things, especially your personal testimony and experience. I shared my testimony and many scriptures with you, relevant to our discussion, but you persist in your false doctrine. If I declared you a great Christian, I would be lying to you. I see someone who was deceived from the beginning. You could have sought the Lord until you truly found him, but your repentance was cut short and I suspect because you did not hear the true gospel from the start, but one of the many false gospels that fills this land, based in denominational doctrines of men and their false interpretations of scripture. You have been using those interpretations with me.

I simply take God at His word I trust no man for what I believe only the Holy Spirit as He leads me and guides me in God's truth.  I do not trust the translators and that is the reason I have studied Koine Greek and Biblical Hebrew for the last 50 years.

I would suggest that you should not have trusted the man who first preached to you. Are you not simply trusting yourself? Paul says we are to be subject one to another in the fear of God. He even says we are to obey them that have the rule over us, submitting ourselves (speaking about true pastors and leaders raised up by God). How do you love the brethren if you trust none of them?

I can say as Paul I have run the course, I have fought a good fight, and am now ready to be offered.  But I will continue to follow Christ as long as He lets me live on earth.  I celebrated my 75th birthday Sept 26.

Roy I could care less about what you think about me and my life along with my beliefs.  The only thing that matters is that I have a personal relationship with Jesus and we talk on a first name bases and I can't wait until I see Him again.

If I am not a real Christian and spouting my own words and ideas, you have nothing to worry about, Aaron. But if what I have told you is from the Lord, then this conversation will come up again on the Day of Judgment. If you don't repent from your false ways, Aaron, I don't expect to see you in heaven. As a false prophet, you are already cursed of God. Repent or you will perish.

If you make it to heaven we will compare notes then.

God Bless,

Aaron

Comment by Aaron Lewis on October 7, 2014 at 8:00pm

Hi Roy,

Everything I have done since August of 1949 when I was born again of the Holy Spirit and 2 months later preached my first sermon on a topic that no one believed then and only one man I know besides myself believe it now.  It is a plain Bible truth and has nothing to do with God's plan of salvation.

Everything I have done since that time has been to bring honor and glory to my Lord and master Jesus Christ.

I make no decisions that I don't consult God beforehand.

During my lifetime God has had to chasten me a few times when I got too big for my britches and did things on my own without consulting Him.

Since He has chastised I know that I am still His child because He does not chastise the devils children.

But I am not depending on any of the works I have done to get me eternal life.  I do expect to get rewarded for the things I did right as Paul tells us.

All that I am depending on for eternal life is the Word of Jesus Christ who is God Himself and can not lie.

John said if I believed on the only Begotten Son of God I was not condemned. Jesus said I would receive eternal life and I would never perish if I was His sheep and followed Him. John 10:28 

Conclusions:

I came to Jesus and asked Him to save me believing He could save me and give me eternal life.

John said if I believed on the name of the only Begotten Son of God I was not condemned.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jesus said through John the above statement.

I believe what Jesus said.

I have been chastised of God which proves to me I am a child of God.

As far as the best I can do as being filthy rags in the eyes of God I just believe what Isaiah said.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Now you may be a better child of God than Isaiah was, but I don't think I am a better child of God that Isaiah was.   He concluded that all of us as he used "we" and "our" to say "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags".  That means the best I can do is nothing in the eyes of God.  That is why He came down to earth and died on the cross and was buried and resurrected so His righteousness could be imputed to me.  Because my righteousness is nothing.

I am amazed at how you can know everything about my life with absolutely no information about it and have concluded because I do not believe as you do that a person can be saved today and lost tomorrow that I have not been born again.  I simply take God at His word I trust no man for what I believe only the Holy Spirit as He leads me and guides me in God's truth.  I do not trust the translators and that is the reason I have studied Koine Greek and Biblical Hebrew for the last 50 years.

I can say as Paul I have run the course, I have fought a good fight, and am now ready to be offered.  But I will continue to follow Christ as long as He lets me live on earth.  I celebrated my 75th birthday Sept 26.

Roy I could care less about what you think about me and my life along with my beliefs.  The only thing that matters is that I have a personal relationship with Jesus and we talk on a first name bases and I can't wait until I see Him again.

If you make it to heaven we will compare notes then.

God Bless,

Aaron

.

Comment by Douglas Roy on October 6, 2014 at 12:20am

Aaron, I am not the one trying to "pluck you out" of the Lord's hand. I'm a child of the King who wants you to know the reality of Christ. When you are truly born again, God has prepared good works for you to do. Each one who enters the kingdom of God is a new creature in Christ. Old things are passed away and all things become new. The new man is born of God and able to do good, else no one could ever do the will of God and be pleasing to the Lord. But the Lord has showed us that he will say to those who serve him, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant. Enter into the joy of your Lord." Through the cross of Christ there is great redemption: forgiveness of our sins, justification before God, given the gift of Christ's righteousness, made the children of God, born again of the Holy Ghost and the word of God, and much more. But you preach that the best you can do is filthy rags before God. That is all that any unregenerate man can do, but a born again soul is given power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. This is why I have questioned your faith, Aaron, as your testimony is of an unregenerate man attempting to serve Christ in his flesh, not truly born anew. The cross of Christ has had no power in your life, not because it has no power, but because your faith is not the faith of Christ, not saving faith. You were taught a false gospel from the start, wherein was no power. You are trusting in the words of Christ as can be read in any Bible, but you are not trusting Christ himself. Your faith is not in a living savior, but in the Bible, because that is what you were taught.

Your testimony, or lack thereof, has revealed the truth of your life, that you are not a Christian at all. You are a Baptist. You have believed their doctrine, their gospel, but it is not the true gospel and therefore you have no true works of faith. I do not bear witness to what you've said or what you teach because you have a different spirit than the Holy Spirit. Your doctrines don't match the true teachings of the Lord Jesus. You don't heed his warnings, neither have you heeded the warning of Paul to "examine yourselves to see whether you be in the faith. Christ is the one who taught this in his teaching about the vine and branches and how his disciples, his brethren, would bear good fruit, the fruit of true faith. You've gone the way of the false prophets and a false gospel and your faith is vain.

You are not one that is cut off, Aaron, but one that has never entered in. You did not complete your repentance. It was cut short, because the Baptist gospel teaches that hypocrisy is okay. You just need to believe the words, not actually experience the power of God. No experience is necessary to most Baptists, just words or should I say, just faith without works. This is the faith James (and Christ) condemns as dead.

You are not alone in this error, Aaron. It has overtaken the majority of church goers in one form or another, but you need not continue down this path. You can still repent and turn from your false religion and hypocrisy and sectarianism and from preaching a false gospel. But you must give up this doctrine of demons that has removed the fear of God from your life.

Comment by Aaron Lewis on October 5, 2014 at 10:33pm

Hi Roy,

Roy said: "I asked for evidence of this faith of Christ."

You will have to ask Christ to explain His faith to you when you meet Him.

You see all I did was believe God and take Him at His word when John said the only reason I was condemned was because I had not believed on the only begotten Son of God.

So I trust the safe keeping of my spirit to Jesus and He gave me eternal life and I will never perish.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

I am in the hand of Jesus and you can't get me out of His hand.

I will never perish because Jesus said so.

I can do nothing to gain eternal life myself nor can I do anything to keep my eternal life.  That is all in the hand of Jesus.

The only thing I can do is believe God's and accept the gift of eternal life that He has offered to all who believe on the only begotten Son of God.

In fact the best I can do is as filthy rags in God's sight. 

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

How can my filthy rags keep me saved

God Bless,

Aaron

Comment by Aaron Lewis on October 5, 2014 at 10:09pm

Hi Roy,

I will insert my comments and bold them. 

Roy said:

Let me ask you a few questions, Aaron.

OK.

Do you believe in any of Calvin's other doctrines of the TULIP?

I have no idea of what Calvin's doctrines are.

You said you preached. Were you a minister of a church?

Yes I preach today.  I am currently a pastor.

What denomination were you a part of, if any?

I am a landmark Baptist by choice.

God Bless,

Aaron

Comment by Douglas Roy on October 5, 2014 at 9:08am

Explain to me the meaning of the verses in Ezekiel that I shared and how they apply to the believer today?

Ezekiel 3:20, 18:24, and 33:12

Is the Jew today, who doesn't believe in Jesus, blessed with the blessing of Abraham?

Comment by Douglas Roy on October 5, 2014 at 9:04am

It was not my faith that saved me.

I was saved by the faith of Jesus Christ my Lord.

I simply received the gift He offered.

I asked for evidence of this faith of Christ. The faith of Christ working in me causes me to obey him and do the deeds he wants me to do as I obey. This is faith with "works" or fruit. Jesus showed me a couple years ago that I should start up a Good News Club for children. He led me to the children we were to reach out to while my wife and I were riding our bikes and we had been praying about this. We began the work at a picnic area of their apartment complex and many children came. God worked in them and in their parents. Most were from the Congo of Africa. They were refugees. One of those boys truly believed the gospel and today we are still communicating and he loves Jesus. The faith of Christ in us causes us to act, to obey, and the Lord blesses us. Our very deeds bring him glory and praise. But we do have deeds and by them, we show our faith with works of faith. Not intended to bring about our salvation...only Christ did that, but deeds intended by God for us to do and show our love for Him.

James said, show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works. Paul showed his faith many times by the things he suffered for Christ as he preached the gospel. His scars and sufferings brought glory to God and showed him to be a true man of God: he was taking up his cross. But Demas forsook Paul, "having loved this present world." Was he obeying the Lord? No. "If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him," John tells us. True love brings forth works of love, else it is just words.

So I ask you again, what is the evidence of your faith?

Comment by Douglas Roy on October 5, 2014 at 8:23am

Will this battle and judgment take place prior to the 1000 year reign or after it?

Yes. Prior, when Christ comes to reign he will defeat the armies of the antichrist. But after the 1000 year reign, a great multitude of those on earth during Christ's reign, who are NOT saved, will rebel against the great King  (after Satan is loosed) and be destroyed by fire coming down from heaven upon them.

Does this great white throne judgment take place before or after the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth?

After.

Let me ask you a few questions, Aaron.

Do you believe in any of Calvin's other doctrines of the TULIP?

You said you preached. Were you a minister of a church?

What denomination were you a part of, if any?

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