Natural Selection; Creationism vs. Evolution

So in natural selection, there are four steps.

1. Variation

2. Overproduction

3. Adaptation

4. Descent with modification


So as creationists, we believe in natural selection in a way that species change among their kind, but do not evolve into other species. Right?


Also as creationists, we believe that the fossils that what evolutionists claim are transitional fossils ("missing links") are just variations right?


Is one reason we believe in evolution among the same kind because of the great number of years needed for an organism to evolve into another organism? Are there more reasons?  


It's ironic that people will believe that humans evolved from apes because of one "transitional fossil" LUCY. I was talking to some friends the other day, and they basically thought that: "Oh well evolution must be true because we found LUCY!" So statistically, how many transitional fossils like LUCY would we have to find for evolution to be better supported? Would it be millions? A thousand LUCYS? How many?

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Comment by James Church on April 9, 2011 at 11:31pm
Excellent. I like how you related it back to God, and that we believe that God does not lie.
Comment by Adam J. Benton on April 8, 2011 at 6:25pm
Comment by David Thomas Posey on April 8, 2011 at 6:08pm
I think we are roughly agreed on the "fact" issue. Science is not absolute truth; God is.
Comment by Adam J. Benton on April 8, 2011 at 5:05pm

Sorry it's taken a while to respond, things have been hectic round here.


First there is the notion that science can be absolutely certain about something and, I hate to be so blunt, but for the most part this is just false. Science is based on observations and since we have not observed everything, there may be something yet to be discovered that overturns what we've seen so far. It's the black swan fallacy (All the swan I've seen are white, thus all swans are white...oh dear) and means science is limited to saying "based on all the observed evidence, granite is solid at room temperature, but something may overturn this in the future since we haven't examined all granite, ever."


When "all the observed evidence" is a lot, these statements become scientific facts and are pretty much beyond dispute. But it should be noted that this doesn't mean it is absolutely true - the fact one cannot argue granite is not solid at room temperature based on current evidence does not mean we can proclaim with certainty that granite is solid at room temperature, just that we are very very sure it is.


These are similar statements to what a philosopher might make, but it would be silly to thus equate the two professions. Once this uncertainty had been uncovered, both the philosopher and scientist would continue to test this idea, but the philosopher would retreat into his mind to prove why all granite is solid, whereas the scientists would go "ok, we can't be absolutely certain its sold, but we are really, really certain so I can use to to make snooker tables without worrying about it suddenly turning into liquid."


As for the morality thing, it is true that what is observed can fit within a biblical framework, but it always seemed a bit of post-hoc interpretation to me.

"God gave us a moral code"

"But what about x"

"Oh, that's just the moral code being corrupted."

Being post-hoc doesn't make the idea wrong, but it does make the idea indistinguishable from other explanations of morality, meaning the only real reason we have for choosing it over another idea is by making an assumption and I don't think assumptions should be necessary to accept God's word.

Comment by David Thomas Posey on March 25, 2011 at 7:28pm
Well summarized, James.
Comment by James Church on March 25, 2011 at 5:47pm

Good point, we know God exists. 

God's love can be felt. Obviously, Christians, when they pray, or worship the Lord, they don't have some illusion of someone loving them; it is God. That is perhaps why Atheists think we are crazy. They don't know that there is a God that loves them. 


Also, back to the human thing, there's got to be a moral. If you kill someone, you will know it is wrong. 

And also, when there was no Bible, in Adam and Eves time, God spoke to them. That is perhaps not as common in our time, but we have the Bible that 'speaks' to us. That shows that God judges people fairly. 

Comment by David Thomas Posey on March 25, 2011 at 5:30pm

Mr. Benton,

Man was created with a universal morality, because there was only one man in the universe.  After the fall, men became accustomed to the corruption that was all around them.  Everyone was wiped out except for the folks that still knew mostly what was right and wrong, although there were no perfect people.  Now, everything is still as right and wrong as it ever was, but cultures (fallen man's collective ideals) accept some things because they are desensitized to it.  To clear up these differences and misconceptions--and leave us with no excuse, God gave us the Bible.

I don't want to confuse my opinions, like the definition of "facts," and God's truth, "universal morality," but I still want to reply to your response to my definition.  Facts are irrefutable.  There are very few facts, because this world is extremely complex, but to say that granite (at room temperature) is hard, death is certain, the sun is bright, etc. are beyond dispute.  We can know these as much as we know anything.  As you point out, theories are not semi-truth; everything is either true or false, not in between. 

By the way, it is to the philosopher that nothing is certain, not to the scientist.  It would be sad if no one could be certain of anything, but God is gracious.  We know we exist.  We know eventually whether we are dreaming or not.  If I don't know anything else, I know God.   

Comment by Adam J. Benton on March 25, 2011 at 10:36am
I'm skeptical of some inherent universal morality because almost every prohibition society has had has, at sometime, somewhere, been accepted as normal by another culture. This to me suggests that whilst empathy is a strong influence on our behaviour, it is itself strongly influenced by the culture we grow up in and is thus not as universal as we might think.
Comment by James Church on March 24, 2011 at 9:24pm

Mr. Posey,


Thank you for that. I know little, being a freshman in highschool. I like being corrected :)

Actually someone else pointed out the same thing to me. That like if you kill someone, you will feel like you did something wrong, because of your conscience. 

I'd still have to think about this question more, to make any other conclusions, based on indirect proofs consisting of temporarily assuming the Bible does not exist. I suppose Genesis is good for that, since there was not necessarily a Bible in the way beginning. 

Comment by Adam J. Benton on March 24, 2011 at 2:53pm

Mr Possey, whilst, in the real world, a fact is a statement with a wealth of data to support it, to suggest that the statement is certain or proven is to understate some of the issues with the observations we make of the real world. As Muller put it:
"The honest scientist, like the philosopher, will tell you that nothing can be or has been proved with fully 100% certainty, not even that you or I exist, nor anyone except himself, since he might be dreaming the whole thing."

Nor are theories and facts "rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts." By their nature we are typically less sure of theories than facts, but they are not progressive steps to being considered true - a theory does not transform into a fact as evidence gathers for it since they're fundamentally different types of ideas. 

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